tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281666676136566212024-03-13T20:22:08.879-07:00Mormon to OrthodoxInsights from Mormon-to-Orthodox Christian converts.Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-10741450923279121032017-05-13T12:24:00.002-07:002017-05-13T12:24:27.863-07:00Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy: "Utah’s Largest Newspaper Interviews Mormon to Orthodox Christian Convert"<br /><a href="https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/05/13/utah-mormon-orthodox-convert/">Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy: "Utah’s Largest Newspaper Interviews Mormon to Orthodox Christian Convert"</a>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-16776957180603516982017-05-13T10:40:00.002-07:002017-05-13T10:40:12.210-07:00Utah Mormons, Protestants finding new spiritual home in ancient Orthodox church<a href="http://utah%20mormons%2C%20protestants%20finding%20new%20spiritual%20home%20in%20ancient%20orthodox%20church/">Utah Mormons, Protestants finding new spiritual home in ancient Orthodox church</a>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-11142758920527194832016-08-03T08:42:00.001-07:002016-08-03T08:42:54.982-07:00Mormon-to-Orthodox Converts: Gregory<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<b>MtO: There seem to be two main categories
that those with an LDS background fall into. First, there are individuals who
are or were faithful, active participants, fulfilling their callings and other
LDS-specific duties (i.e. temple service, mission service); then there are
those who have an LDS background, but have never been particularly active, or
have been semi-active at best. Tell us about your LDS background and whether or
not you see yourself as falling into one of these two categories. Where did you
grow up? Were you and your family active in the LDS faith? How many generations
of your family have been LDS? Did you serve a mission? Did you marry in an LDS
temple?<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
I grew up in North Ogden, Utah. The LDS Church and our
faith was definitely the center of our life as a family. Growing up in the town
that my family helped settle, and playing regularly on the land that had been
farmed for several generations strongly impacted me. If I didn't know anything
else about myself growing up, I knew that I was a descendent from pioneers and that
meant something. The strong connection to my heritage as a Mormon was a central
guiding force in my life. I was<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
a fairly
quiet, skinny kid. I wasn't athletic, and didn't really shine academically
either despite the aptitude. I preferred daydreaming and tinkering to playing
with balls, cars, action figures, television, or video games. So, as a
daydreaming LDS kid, much of my life revolved around the ideas I was taught
about pre-mortal life, post-mortal life, and the nature of existence in
general. I didn't really have close friends, so God became someone I talked to
a lot.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
As I got older I did find some great friends, went through
high school pretty normal for a kid who doesn’t exactly have a solid place in
high school. Then, like most LDS young men, I was conflicted about whether to
pursue my dreams right away or whether to serve as a missionary. I struggled
with many of the same things most young men struggle with that might make a
person feel unworthy of teaching others to repent. However, I had an experience
that really impacted me. The Spring before I needed to put my mission
application in. I walked out the front door of our home to sit on the porch,
and was hit squarely in the face with the overwhelming acknowledgement and
manifestation that absolutely everything I was seeing, everything I was, and
everything I had, was given to me and there because God was allowing me to be
and have what I had. It was the experience that led me to serve a mission for
the LDS church as a small effort to return a small portion of my life and being
to God—a sort of tithe of my life you might say.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
I was assigned to the Mexico, Oaxaca mission. It was an
incredible opportunity to be able to be part of the inner lives of so many
wonderful people in that part of the world. It really gave me a lot of
perspective on life. I saw on a daily basis what is "necessary," and
what is luxury.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
You asked
about marriage. I wanted to get married as soon as I could. My mission tempered
some of my pipe dreams a bit, and I wanted to come home, get married, and have
a family as soon as I could. However, it wasn't until I was 28 that I finally
found the girl I knew would be my wife. We met, had a short engagement and were
married in the Brigham City LDS temple. And, if I could put a finger on the
single most binding aspect of our relationship, it was that of common worship.
You can imagine what a crusher it was when I found I couldn't believe in some
of the things I had always taken as eternal truths in the LDS Church—and what a
blow it was, in turn, on her. She stuck by our marriage when I left the LDS
Church, but it nearly killed us<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
and is
still a lot of work—as any marriage is, I suppose.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
<b>Tell us about how you transitioned from
faithful member of the LDS Church to an Orthodox Christian.<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
Not long after my grandparents died, I started doing more
genealogy work to get to know my ancestors better. I always felt a closer bond
to my grandparents than I did to my parents, and doing genealogy work was my
way of filling in that lost bond to the past. I began wondering what their
experience of the LDS Church was like, and what it would have been like to
actually know Joseph Smith. It was a huge epiphany to me that I really didn't
know Joseph Smith at all, yet on a regular basis I claimed to know that he was
a prophet. The handful of stories I knew about him seemed like hardly enough to
continue to claim that I knew he was a prophet. So, I set out to get to know
him on a more personal level.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
I bought Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling, and didn't
make it very far before I realized that my vision of who he was didn't even
come close to reality. My research into the Book of Mormon didn't have to go
very far either. I simply couldn't be a believing, tithing paying LDS person. I
tried being a non-believing, attending Mormon for a while—attempting the
cafeteria Mormon thing. However, when we moved to a new place to establish
residency for graduate school, and I had to integrate into a new ward,
everything fell apart. I just couldn't do it. I couldn't go to church every
week, look into the faces of everyone and try to convince them that I was one
of them. It was also becoming more difficult for me to continue believing in
any religious thought at all. I started reading Dawkins and Hitchens as well as
Boghossian. I became pretty militant in my efforts to "disabuse"
other believers of their delusions. But, there was this little part of me that,
although I could deny that Jesus Christ was divine internally, I just couldn't
do it vocally without feeling absolutely dead inside. And, there were parts of
my life that became very difficult to explain without something greater than
existence to account for it.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
I had
been through a really bad break-up with another church, and didn't know how God
could be present in any other one. I was also very wary of the Roman Catholic
Church and Protestant churches because of the apostasy narrative I'd grown up
with and what I had seen in Latin America, so I just didn't have much hope that
I would be open to faith again. Given the experiences of my life, however,
there was a part of me that was just holding out for something to grasp onto to
give me hope enough to believe. I was an atheist because I felt I couldn't in good
conscience claim to believe in God.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
That was when I entered into a friendly exchange with a
friend about some of the arguments for God that I had been led to believe were
hollow. I have always firmly believed that the point of discourse and debate is
to come closer to truth, not to simply come out on top of the argument. He
asked questions about faults he saw in my logic, and I answered sincerely. I
asked questions about faults I thought I saw in the arguments he posed, and he
answered sincerely; and in a short time, there was enough reason to hope that
my heart won out over my head, (or possibly my better educated head won out
over my wounded heart?), and I had to confess to myself that I was a believer
of some kind so I should act accordingly and commit myself to Christ.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
More important in the reckoning of things was probably the
acknowledgement that if God were the being I had known most of my life as a
being of love, a relationship with Him would entail choosing Him. How could I
choose if I were forced to believe? I had to admit to myself that ultimately I
had to choose to believe. I had to choose to enter into a relationship with
God. (This is very difficult for us. We like to know the end from the beginning.
We like to know that our investment is safe. But, this is the way things are in
a trusting, loving relationship.) And, it was a leap I was willing to take
after several agonizing days of internal struggle.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
At this point, this friend passed along some good books on
Orthodoxy and I visited a local parish. The first time I attended Divine
Liturgy, the worship spoke to me. The songs being sung had nothing to do with
anything besides the worship of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and petitions
for the benefit of all people. I cried as I stood in the presence of God's
Kingdom. There were so many things I didn't understand. But, I knew that the
choir singing and the smoke of the incense, and the physical worship of God was
right. I made an appointment to meet with the priest and began devouring as
many books as I could get my hands on about Orthodoxy. I found that the
theology spoke to my soul and matched with my experience of God. There were
quirks I didn't quite understand, but I was willing to withhold judgement in
favor of the theology and my desire to unite myself to Christ, the lover of my
soul.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
Somehow it was all so complex, but as simple as the Cross
itself. It made all the sense in the world, but at the very same time was
beyond understanding and crazy.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
Interesting
enough, my introduction to Orthodoxy was around the beginning of Lent, and I
was baptized a few weeks after Pascha. Somehow the spirit of Great & Holy
Lent reached out to me although I still was not baptized and pulled me into the
embrace of our loving mother, the hospital of my soul, The Church, and Christ's
love.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
<b>I am sure that the difficulties you
experienced during this transition period resonate with many of us who have
converted from the LDS faith to Orthodoxy. That said, each of us are drawn to
the faith for unique reasons. What are the main factors that drew you to Orthodox
Christianity?<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
I am a physical/tactile person, so the physical form of
worship is good for me. My soul and body are found in the same place and
created by the same God. I like that they get to worship as one person. The
balance of mysticism and philosophy in the Orthodox tradition appeals to me as well.
The coward in me likes to keep my feet on the solid ground of good philosophic
rigor, while the poet in me likes to simply BE with God and let Him teach me in
ways that are beyond speaking. The ascetic nature of Orthodox life is good for
me. I need the constant opportunities for self-deprivation and struggle, and I
like the way that the Orthodox tradition gives me plenty of room for this.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
I also find a lot of value in the variety of perspectives
and practices within Orthodoxy. Despite being on the outside very rigid in its
hold to tradition, it is surprisingly extremely flexible, and fosters the life
of Christ in every way. Be strict with yourself, but charitable and forgiving
with everyone else. There is a lot of openness for a variety of views on
theological and practical matters. This is good. The runners are allowed to
run, while those who can only walk are just as acceptable in their walking.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
<b>Did you ever consider any of the other
apostolic faiths (Roman/ Eastern Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy)? If so, why
did you ultimately choose Eastern Orthodox Christianity?<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
I really had no need to look further once entering an
Orthodox church and experiencing the worship there. I was open to possibly
being disappointed by it and needing to visit other churches. But, I really
didn't need to go very far to know that I was where I needed to be.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
<b>What are the main differences or changes you
have seen in your life since becoming an Orthodox Christian?<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
My wife might disagree, ha ha, but I feel that I'm a more
patient, loving person than I used to be. Orthodoxy has entirely changed the
way I relate to the world around me. Although I still struggle, I am more
willing to accept each person with his/her weaknesses struggling in the same
fallen world. Glory to God for any good change that has happened to me; it's
not my grace that has worked any change in my heart, but His.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
<b>Do you have a favorite saint? If so, why is
she/ he your favorite?<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
My patron saint is St. Gregory Palamas. I really admire his
ability to know when to keep his mouth shut and when to open it. Although he
preferred a solitary, silent life, he was prepared to open his mouth and defend
the faith articulately. He was well-versed in philosophy, but was also a major
defender of the mystic traditions of the Church.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
The other Saint whose life I frequently think about is St.
Nikolaos of Myra. Charity and love are everything—but don't toot your horn
about it. Do good because it is right, and let God see if He wants to.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
<b>What is one thing about the Orthodox Christian
faith, or your own personal conversion to Orthodoxy, that you would like LDS
people to know?<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
Orthodoxy may be very different from the type of worship
you are used to. It may seem strange to stand for nearly an hour and a half,
burn incense, kiss images of holy people, or make the sign of the cross over
oneself. But, withhold judgment long enough to listen, watch, and attempt to
understand, and He who gives understanding will open the eyes of the blind and
the ears of the deaf. And, even if you still disagree with many things, you
will come away understanding why we love the God who loved us first. This is
the cornerstone of all of existence—that God loved the world enough to bring it
into existence, and enough to save it when we screw it all up. And, we having
been created in His image, must also make love the cornerstone of our lives. If
“(I) have not love, I am nothing.” It is the motivation of our repentance, our
gratitude, and our life in Him who is Love.<o:p></o:p></div>
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-44819891337705537422015-04-03T13:13:00.002-07:002015-04-03T13:13:37.077-07:00Mormon-to-Orthodox converts: Deacon Athanasius.<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><i><span style="line-height: 115%;">I am very excited to share with you this newest conversion story from Deacon Athanasius. What follows is the autobiographical </span><span style="line-height: 18.3999996185303px;">account</span><span style="line-height: 115%;"> of his conversion. Enjoy!</span></i><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 115%;">“God forbid that I should boast except in the Cross of our Lord
Jesus” - Galatians 6:14</span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 115%;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord bless us Amen.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">My journey to the Holy and Apostolic Orthodox Church is one of
great turmoil and upheaval yet a story of God’s grace and mercy <u>undeserved</u>. It started with my father becoming Mormon in
1966 when he found my mother was pregnant with me, being born six months after
their LDS wedding. My mother was a fourth generation Mormon, whereas my father
was raised Anglican in Liverpool, England. <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">For eighteen years I attended all and every LDS service from
Sunday school, cubs, scouts, MIA, acted as a Home teaching companion for my
father and went to all manner of conferences culminating in me attending one
year of high school @ Church College in New Zealand (1983). My father by faith gave
his all to the church and to the service of the LDS people; every spare second
was spent away from home to the detriment of all family relationships – and his
LDS reward, promotion to Bishop, Stake Councillor, Regional Rep and Mission
Presidency etc. <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">It was in this period of rapid promotion of my father that I felt
a deep conflict about the LDS teachings and way of life, I completed seminary
(my mother was the teacher for 3 of the 4 years) and I even interviewed to
serve a mission, but in a heartfelt moment of clarity I declared to the Stake
President I wasn’t “worthy” as the matter was more for the “family name and
reputation” than out of any personal belief in the LDS teachings, that is not
to say that the LDS church is not filled with some awesome people trying their
best with the limited view of Church history they have chosen to accept. <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Given my doubts and need to know the truth (by asking those
difficult questions Sunday school teachers hate) it didn’t mean I hadn’t
experienced the grace and mercy of God a number of times (near death in a car
accident and the same when drowning whilst surfing) I had in private moments of
tears and prayers been left with a sense that The Lord was near and His love
was evident in hindsight of my survival to this day despite my best efforts to
ignore Him and go my on way. <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">So I left home to wonder the world for twenty seven years –
travelled extensively USA, UK, Europe, Australia, all of Asia experiencing
tremendous financial success and spectacular failure which culminated in
becoming homeless in 2011. In my travels I had seen first-hand many religions,
from Buddha to Baptist to Jew but never felt any real connection to them and in
fact found myself in a state of disdain at the “one day a week Christians”, in
weakness and folly I dared to judge and formed a view that religion was made by
man for man’s own ego and not to glory of Christ. Then in a state of absolute
despair and contemplating suicide I meet Arch Priest James – an Orthodox Priest
of 20 years serving the homeless and poor on the streets in winter. I looked on
in awe at how the homeless greeted him with hugs, smiles, handshakes, sharing
laughter and food, it was a his deep concern and unconditional love for the
poor that struck me, time and again I witnessed his generosity and simple life
style, God had planted a seed in me that yearned to be watered by Him.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">May 30<sup>th</sup> 2012 I was asked to attend a meal at the
homeless shelter run my Arch Priest Fr James, little was I to know that it was
not a communal meal but just me, a friend and the Fr James. As I entered the
small humble church (in an old warehouse) with all its icons and relics I was
struck by the peace emanating from the St Marcy icon… Fr James had prepared a
simple meal for us to share and in his uniquely robust and forthright manner
wanted to know my story to the state of homelessness. <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">As I shared that journey through Mormonism, Baptist, Buddhist and
through successive job promotions to CEO of public company to homelessness he
said nothing, but his deep blue eyes glazed with an intense and scary scrutiny that
I could feel blow right through me. At the end, he simply said “God exists,
your sins and free will have brought you to this point”… I did not comprehend
his statement and so asked some questions about Orthodoxy, laughing he said
“come to bible study and all will be revealed”, at which point I was offered a
room in the shelter, eyes filled with tears and overwhelmed I felt the Lord had
shed a thousand pounds of my darkness and by His mercy shown this wretched man
His love.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">For three months I attended any and all bible studies (twice a
week) and liturgies (twice a week) I could to understand what exactly Orthodoxy
was, remarkably Fr James gave me plenty of time at the end of the bible studies
and I was afforded the blessing of being able to ask many questions to fill the
void and remove the misinformation I had learnt about Christ, filling my heart
with joy at His life, His love and plan for me. <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">The catalyst for asking to be baptised Orthodox was three fold; <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">The one Holy Apostolic church has always been on earth since
Christ and is active through Bishops, priests and deacons with the Holy mystery
of liturgy and the divine body/blood.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">The authority given by Christ to the Apostles to “bind on earth
shall be bound in Heaven” has been passed down to this present day and that
same authority provided a path of repentance and absolution of hidden and
visible sin.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Christ through my weakness, frailty and sin was showing me
undeserved grace and mercy calling me to Him, showing me what a Christ like
life is in the service of others and the selfless attitude needed to be at peace
whilst mindful of ones state at all times (evidenced by Fr James but also
historically by Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Saints, Monks and lay people).<br /></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Times, 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 18.3999996185303px;">At baptism Fr James asked me if I wished to follow the tradition of being “renamed” and this I agreed to by his </span><span style="font-family: Times, 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 18.3999996185303px;">choice of names – hence I am Athanasius - Post baptism I spent hundreds of hours in study, pray and service </span><span style="font-family: Times, 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 18.3999996185303px;">to the poor and in doing so found a deeper personal faith in Christ, a profound love for St Mary and witnessed numerous miracles that served to show me that “fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom”.</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
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<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> </span></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Being ordained by an Orthodox Bishop to the servant office of
Deacon has revealed further insight of the awe inspiring mystery of Christ’s
Holy body and blood, the prayers that lift one’s soul before the Holy alter and
to be content (at peace) in any and all conditions of life.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Today, I share this story not to boast of myself but to show that
one has free will to ask, seek and knock with an open mind, a sincere heart,
surely the truth of Christ Jesus will set you free. I am no one special, yet through
the grace of God He sent His apostolic priest to teach me the truth and reveal
to me my weakness yet hope, my sin yet forgiveness, my need for correction and
direction by example of humble and God fearing Orthodox Christians, to whom I
thank God for.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Finally in the words of St Paul the Apostle “O wretched man that I
am!” - Lord have mercy. <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Deacon Athanasius+ <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;">For those interested in Arch Priest Fr James teachings (one of the
world’s foremost scholars on the Holy Fathers, Saints and church history) go
to: </span><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.frjamesscully.com/"><span style="line-height: 115%;">www.frjamesscully.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height: 115%;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> </span></span>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-73551201365980126882015-03-28T22:34:00.000-07:002015-03-28T22:38:02.697-07:00Mormon-to-Orthodox converts: Jaccy.<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; line-height: 14.3520002365112px; margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 15.4559993743896px; white-space: normal;"><i>Today I have the pleasure to share with you my interview with Mormon-to-Orthodox convert, Jaccy. Hers is a story that I believe will resonate with many who have made the transition from Mormon to Orthodox Christian.</i><br /><br /><b><u>MtO</u>: There seem to be two main categories that those wi</b></span><span class="text_exposed_show" style="display: inline; font-weight: bold; line-height: 15.4559993743896px; white-space: normal;">th an LDS background fall into. First, there are individuals who are or were faithful, active participants, fulfilling their callings and other LDS-specific duties (i.e. temple service, mission service); then there are those who have an LDS background, but have never been particularly active, or have been semi-active at best. Tell us about your LDS background and whether or not you see yourself as falling into one of these two categories. Where did you grow up? Were you and your family active in the LDS faith? How many generations of your family have been LDS? Did you serve a mission? Did you marry in an LDS temple?</span>
<u>Jaccy</u>: I didn't grow up in a very strict Mormon family. We missed Sunday services at times for family trips, fishing, and sporting events. I remember being embarrassed that I didn't know many of the Sunday School songs or scripture stories when I did attend. That being said, my identity was Mormon and I was proud of my heritage. When I was about ten I really started to read heavier books and became very interested in my faith. I read the entire volume set of Doctrines of Salvation. Despite our sporadic attendance, I completed seminary, never broke the word of wisdom, kept the law of chastity, and saw myself an ambassador of the Mormon faith. I attended BYU and got married in the temple at 19 to a returned missionary from my home ward. I became much more serious about my faith and did all that I could to attend services, study, pray, and fulfill callings.
<b>Tell us about how you transitioned from faithful member of the LDS Church to an Orthodox Christian.</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">We had been raising our children in Utah, when my husband joined the military. I loved Utah and leaving was difficult. I decided to take the opportunity to be a better member missionary. We moved to the Bible belt and I was exposed to many different types of Christians. I had discovered that many of them had a much closer relationship to God than I, were semi familiar with Mormonism, and had no intention of ever joining. This was difficult for me to accept. As someone who strove to live their covenants and hoping to obtain exaltation, how could I enter the celestial kingdom and not them? I just wanted to give up the spot I was hoping to achieve. I decided the problem was with my missionary efforts. I decided to double down on prayer, handing out the Book of Mormon, inviting missionaries over, fulfilling callings, inviting friends to LDS Church functions, and really studying LDS Church history. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">My husband and I did this for about two years. We were happy being LDS. Everything was going smoothly, except that my studies (all from faithful LDS sources) on early Mormon history had brought more questions and I felt that my personal beliefs were becoming more and more incompatible with Mormonism. Despite those feelings, I continued on, bearing my testimony every fast and testimony meeting and fulfilling my calling in the Primary Presidency. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">At this time I decided to read about Orthodox Christianity. This was not an odd thing for me to do. I often studied other faiths out of curiosity and to help my missionary efforts. I bought the book Introducing the Orthodox Church: It's Faith and Life by Anthony Coniaris. I remember reading each page thinking, "yes, yes, this is what I have always believed in my heart." It was the combination of feeling unsatisfied spiritually and that there was an intriguing new door that was open to me that allowed me to ask myself, "What if Mormonism is not true?" When I allowed myself to truly consider that question it was as if a huge weight had been lifted. I stop believing in Mormonism right in that moment. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">I did not get to see my first Orthodox Church until months later. My husband was still committed to the LDS faith, dealing with his unbelieving wife. We had a very short staffed ward and I did not want to abandon my calling and everyone who had been relying on me. I simply taught about Christ during my lessons and sacrament talks. I kept my unbelief a secret. I wanted to take time to study, fast, and pray, in order to be sure of such a life changing decision that not only affected me but everyone around me, especially those I love. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">This was an emotional time. Even though I had been introduced to Orthodoxy, I was unprepared for what it would be like to suddenly discard my most fundamental beliefs that largely contributed to my very identity. I felt like I was just left with a mess of puzzle pieces that didn't fit together. The frustration and exhaustion led me to profess atheism for a short time. Rebuilding my beliefs was overwhelming, especially with my new found skepticism. I needed a clean slate to build up my beliefs from the ground up. Starting from the perspective of a materialist atheist seemed to be the easiest course.
Christ had always been the most important part of my faith as a Mormon. Every spiritual experience I ever had was centered around Him. Letting go of my Mormon beliefs was relatively easy compared to what it was like for me to mentally let go of Christ. I felt like I needed to see and experience Christ with new eyes. But I really wasn’t sure who Christ was. I decided to learn about Christianity from its roots so I began studying the early Church Fathers, pre-Nicene Creed. This ended up confirming my need to go and experience Orthodoxy. When LDS Church callings in my ward were being switched around, I took the opportunity to request that my bishop not call me to anything else. That was the last day I attended an LDS Church service. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">I attended my first Greek Orthodox service alone. My husband, no longer a believing Mormon but not ready to explore new beliefs, was supportive. I attended for a month, met with the priest, and asked to be baptized. He kind of laughed and told me that I needed time to learn the faith. I didn't know it at the time, but I had become a catechumen. Seven months later my children and I were baptized followed by my husband six months later.
<b>I am sure that the difficulties you experienced during this transition period resonate with many of us who have converted from the LDS faith to Orthodoxy. That said, each of us are drawn to the faith for unique reasons. <span style="line-height: 15.4559993743896px;">What are the main factors that drew you to Orthodox Christianity?</span></b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">The draw to Orthodoxy was that I believed and still believe it is Christ's Church. Reading the early Church Fathers, brought me to belief in the Trinity and that the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Christ. I wanted to be where I could touch God. I also admired the bold truth claims of Orthodoxy that were also bereft of judging the salvation of those outside the faith. Entering an Orthodox service, kneeling and praying Orthodox prayers, and living the faith brings my soul to a place of peace.
<span style="line-height: 15.4559993743896px; white-space: normal;"><b>Did you ever consider any of the other so-called apostolic faiths (Roman/ Eastern Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy)? If so, why did you ultimately choose Eastern Orthodox Christianity?</b></span>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">I had always considered Roman Catholicism. I had a pleasant experience in a Catholic parish as a child. One of my neighbors when we moved from Utah was Catholic. I felt God in her home and working through her person. My daughters were in American Heritage Scouts that worked out of a Catholic charter. I probably would have been open to becoming Catholic but I found my home in Orthodoxy. While an Orthodox catechumen I studied some of the history and divisive issues between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism and I usually favored Orthodox practice and teachings.
<span style="line-height: 15.4559993743896px; white-space: normal;"><b>What are the main differences or changes you have seen in your life since becoming an Orthodox Christian?</b></span>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Since becoming Orthodox, I have become more aware of my own failings and less judgmental of others, God help me. I look forward to attending services and am disappointed when I cannot attend. It is not a feeling of guilt but more out of loss of a missed opportunity. Praying is easier for me. In Mormonism I felt tremendous performance pressure during prayers. I love Orthodox prayers and am able to focus more on my heart. I have developed a great love for Mary. I have become more focused on the transformation of my character and less on my outward appearance of righteousness.
<span style="line-height: 15.4559993743896px; white-space: normal;"><b>Do you have a favorite saint? If so, why is she/ he your favorite?</b></span>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">I don’t have a favorite Saint. One of the wonderful things about being Orthodox is there are so many different Saints with different life stories that can appeal to our own lives at different times. My Saint name is Sophia. My three daughters also took the names of her daughters Faith, Hope, and Love. The Saint I have been thinking about the most recently is St. Monica. I will probably never be a monastic. I may never be asked to give my life as a martyr. But I am a mother like St. Monica. She became a Saint due to her love and diligent prayer for her family. When there is nothing I can do, I can always pray. Many times I forget to pray and St. Monica reminds me. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>What is one thing about the Orthodox Christian faith, or your own personal conversion to Orthodoxy, that you would like LDS people to know?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">I would like LDS people to know that I still love them. I loved being Mormon and will always appreciate my upbringing. I tried to live the Mormon spiritual life as much as could but there was a disconnect for me. I hit a wall spiritually. Orthodoxy is where my soul found peace and I found growth in my relationship with God.
<b>Thank you for sharing your story with us, Jaccy.</b></span></div>
Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-86556774860945065772015-03-21T18:36:00.001-07:002015-03-28T22:35:16.545-07:00Mormon-to-Orthodox converts: Josh.<div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><i>This week I have the pleasure of sharing with you Josh's answers to my interview questions. Josh's conversion story is a very interesting one that took him through various faith traditions. I hope you enjoy what he has to share.</i><br /><br /><u style="font-weight: bold;">MtO</u><b>: Where did you grow up? Were you and your family active in the LDS faith? </b></span><b style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;">How many generations of your family have been LDS?</b></div>
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<b style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><br /></b><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430910143733217:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430910143733217:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><u>Josh</u>: Brigham City, Utah... My family has been active LDS since it's inception. My fathers family were with the Smiths and Company back in upstate New York, they were frustrated with the denominationals, being in the epicenter of "the burnt over" region of</span></span><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430910143733217:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430910143733217:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430910143733217:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"> New York... My mothers side joined with the LDS troop in Navoo... I am directly related to Lorenzo Snow (and just about everyone in northern Utah with the last name of -son... Neilson, Anderson, Larson, Christiansen... Our family was one of the 7 families sent by Brigham Young to norther Utah to settle what is </span></span></span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">now Brigham City.</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b>Did you serve a mission?</b></span><br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b><br /></b></span><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430911900399708:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430911900399708:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I did not serve a mission, but all of my friends and neighbors did. We moved from "behind the Zion Curtain" when I was still in High School, and we relocated to the Oregon Coast where LDS' are a minority.We moved to 4 </span></span><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430911900399708:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430911900399708:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430911900399708:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">Square/Lutheran/Baptist country.</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b>Did you marry in an LDS temple?</b></span><br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b><br /></b></span><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">No, but my parents, grand parents, greats and all the like married/sealed in the temple. I did A LOT of baptisms for the dead in SLC as a teenager, collected the tithe (house to house, with a bell) </span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">fast'n'testimony, home teaching, and seminary classes while a freshman, but that is my extant of my LDS service.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b> Did you leave the LDS faith before or after learning about Orthodox Christianity? If before, have you been an adherent of any other faith traditions along the way? </b></span><b style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;">Did you ever consider any of the other so-called apostolic faiths (Roman/ Eastern Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy)? If so, why did you ultimately choose Eastern Orthodox Christianity?</b><br />
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b><br /></b></span><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430914033732828:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body" style="background-color: #f6f7f8;"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430914033732828:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430914033732828:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430914033732828:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I left LDS and went directly into the Occult/New Age. From there I went, seriously, into Rastafarianism. This is where I picked up my Bible for the first time and studied, albeit through the lens of natty dred, I turned vegetarian, made my own clothes, </span></span><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430914033732828:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430914033732828:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430914033732828:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">and lived in the woods in an old Hippie Commune. The hippies led me to Zen and then to Penchant Lama Buddhism. From the baobab tree I turned to charismatic holy rollin' snake handlin' Christianity. I mellowed out from that madness when I couldn't lie to myself any longer. Then I was a great proponent of the gospel according to my own liking and bent the scriptures to suit my needs... from there I, and to my shame, went to "2 seed line Christian Identity" and thought I finally found a home. </span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8;"><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">Christian Identity was just sooo subversive I had to be right. Then when I saw that compassion was overlooked because of race, I became disillusioned for good, or so I thought. I met some "liturgical" Christias and </span></span></span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">started going to an Anglican Church. At the same time I was meeting and talking to 2 Muslim brothers who wooed me strongly in the Zim Zam spring. Islam made a lot of damn sense. The world had it wrong and Muhammad came to set the record straight. B</span><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430918917065673:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430918917065673:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">ut history was my ally and I couldn't stomach the Kabba for long. I started going to an Anglican Seminary and felt a little tug into the clergy, but alas I think I liked the Idea of it more than the reality. I moved and as there was no Anglica</span></span><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430918917065673:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="background-color: #f6f7f8;"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430918917065673:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430918917065673:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">n church to attend I went to Rome. I went to mass as often as I could (high Latin mass) but ALWAYS felt empty afterwards. Like, what the hell? I had travelled the worlds religions... where are you?</span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b><br /></b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b>How did you find out about Orthodox Christianity?</b></span><br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b><br /></b></span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">I learned about Orthodoxy in seminary, and at first was atracted to the Maronites and Copts.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b>What are the main factors that drew you to Orthodox Christianity?</b></span><br />
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b><br /></b></span><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">What drew me to Orthodoxy first and foremost was the community. When I saw for the first time families sitting on the floor during the Gospel Homily, and wives resting their heads on their husbands chest, children cuddling up on the rugs under the candle light, I thought </span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8;"><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">that THIS... THIS is what it's all about, community. Damn the rules and theologies. Finally, Jesus in community, with us. I had come home.</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>What are the main differences or changes you have seen in your life since becoming an Orthodox Christian?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><br /><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430922273732004:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">T</span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430922273732004:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430922273732004:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".2s.1:3:1:$comment429528530538045_430922273732004:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">he main change? I have learned to freaking relax and not worry so much. I have found rest. The liturgy is a deep cleansing breath. I don't have to fret about getting it right all the time.</span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><br /></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;"><b>What is one thing about the Orthodox Christian faith, or your own personal conversion to Orthodoxy, that you would like LDS people to know?</b></span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><u><br /></u></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Times, 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;">What I would tell my LDS family, frends, and neighbors is never stop wondering. Keep seeking the heart of all things. Truth will find you.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>Do you have a favorite saint? If so, why is she/ he your favorite?</b></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 16.0799999237061px;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">I favor John the Forerunner. As an Anglican and RC we shared the same birthday/feast day and as a whole we have been simpatico. I have, and probably will again, say something that will get my head cut off. In Islam John the Baptist is revered, in Christian Identity he is a hallmark of the out cast. I see my Icon of John and it comforts me; it is a deep emotional connection, a yearning almost.</span></span></div>
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Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-62851557764500602232015-03-13T16:48:00.000-07:002015-03-28T22:36:33.957-07:00Mormon-to-Orthodox converts: Symeon.<div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-size: 12.8000001907349px;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><i>This week I am excited to present my interview with fellow Mormon-to-Orthodox convert, Symeon. Symeon was the first LDS person I met who shared my interest in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and has been a great conversation partner along the way. I hope you enjoy what he had to say.</i><br /><br /><u style="font-weight: bold;">MtO</u><b>: There seem to be two main categories that those with an LDS background fall into. First, there are individuals who are or were faithful, active participants, fulfilling their callings and other LDS-specific duties (i.e. temple service, mission service); then there are those who have an LDS background, but have never been particularly active, or have been semi-active at best. Tell us about your LDS background and whether or not you see yourself as falling into one of these two categories.</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>How many generations of your family have been LDS?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><u>Symeon</u>: Multi-generational active Mormon. Lived the complete, full Mormon experience: born under the covenant, primary, priesthood, served a mission, married in the temple. Taught early morning seminary and Institute for a period of time, as well as adult Gospel Doctrine and Gospel Principles. My father's family were the first to join and stay in the state of Kentucky (around 1900 CE) and pretty much every ward and branch in Kentucky has at least one cousin of mine in it. My mother's family are direct descendants of Ezra T. Benson, apostle to Brigham Young. They crossed the plains and had multiple wives. Ezra Taft Benson, the president of the LDS church in the 1980s, was my grandmother's cousin.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>Where did you grow up? Were you and your family active in the LDS faith?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">I grew up in rural Kentucky. This means that my branch was very small, and my father was the branch president. We were very active. I rarely missed a week of church, and missing two weeks in a row was unheard of. Never smoked a cigarette, never let alcohol touch my lips. We had Family Home Evening pretty regularly and lots of scripture and gospel discussions.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>Did you serve a mission?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">I served in the Texas Lubbock Mission from 2004-2006. It was by and large a pleasant experience where I learned a lot.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>Did you marry in an LDS temple?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">Yes, I married in the Louisville, Kentucky temple, which my grandfather helped to build. He was also a sealer and performed our sealing ceremony.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>Did you leave the LDS faith before or after learning about Orthodox Christianity? If before, have you been an adherent of any other faith traditions along the way?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">Long after. I've known about Orthodoxy since I was a teenager, though it never seemed like a church I could actually join until a couple years ago.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>How did you find out about Orthodox Christianity?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">This is an interesting story (to me anyway). When I was a young deacon in the LDS church (around 12 years old or so) I filled out a card I found in a magazine to join the "History Book Club," which meant that I got to choose 5 free history books to be delivered straight to my door. Unfortunately, it also obligated my parents to buy more books, but I wasn't really thinking about that when I filled out the card. I had read a little bit about the Byzantine Empire in my world history textbook and I was intrigued and wanted to know more, so one of the books I chose to get was called A Short History of Byzantium by a man named John Julius Norwich.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">The book was a quite unflattering treatment of basically the most sordid details of Byzantine history. When the Church was mentioned it was typically in a cynical and light-hearted way. I came away from the book with a burning wonder in my heart. On the surface I thought, "those poor apostate Christians, if only they hadn't rejected the true church they wouldn't have suffered so much." I truly bought the whole Mormon Great Apostasy narrative and the awful details of Byzantine history confirmed to me that the light of the Church had left the Earth by that time.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">But deep down it still impressed itself deeply upon me. It was a strange mixture of feelings. I wondered what the Byzantine church was like, why it seemed to generate so much controversy and conflict, what the Byzantines were seeing in church that I wasn't seeing. Why these Christians would willingly go to their deaths to defend what I saw as an apostate form of Christianity. It planted a seed within me that didn't sprout for some time.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">Along the way I picked up little bits of interesting facts about Orthodoxy: their view of the priesthood, early narratives about the Apostles and early Christianity that seemed to run counter to the Great Apostasy narrative, and especially views about Theosis. I still found many foundational doctrines to be ridiculous (like the Trinity) but I couldn't shake this idea that Orthodoxy had kept true doctrines in a special way through history.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">On my mission I considered myself an "expert" in early Christian history based on my knowledge gained from my history books as well as The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage. I studied that book front-to-back and believed every word of it. One day, while knocking doors in West Texas, I knocked into the house of an Orthodox deacon. I believe he was a deacon - I have searched through my journals and can't find a precise retelling of the event. In any case, when I started to talk with him about all the errors that I saw in early Christian history, he quickly put me in my place. He repeatedly stated that he didn't want to argue with me, but I kept badgering him and finally he threw down a bunch of facts and saints from the first few centuries of Christianity that really shut me up. I realized that I had swallowed the Mormon narrative of early Christianity but that this narrative may have very little to do with what actually happened. I was pretty humbled. But again, this nurtured the seed that had begun to grow within me.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">After my mission, I decided to begin to learn about Christian doctrine, not from the point of view of Mormon apologetics, but from the point of view of faithful Christians. It's the same courtesy I wanted others to take from Mormons.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">At this same time my faith in Mormonism began to waver. Deep down, Mormonism had never really answered the deepest existential questions I had about reality. Why is reality the way it is and not another way? Where did God come from? Is God the member of a heavenly family? What grounds goodness and morality? Even as a young teenager these questions bothered me (in a very rudimentary and undisciplined way, before I really studied philosophy and theology). I had this unmistakable feeling that Mormonism didn't have any rational grounding - that at its core, it really couldn't answer questions like, "Why are we here?"</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">This, combined with 1) an increasing awareness and engagement with the biggest problems of Mormon history, and 2) a complete and utter void in my Mormon spiritual life (I found Mormonism to be largely a superficial "feel good" religion that focused so much on "testimony preservation" but no tools for deep spiritual growth as I wanted it) resulted in a blossoming in my heart of the Holy Spirit. I'd always thought I had felt the Holy Spirit in Mormonism, but when it finally hit me (the actual Holy Spirit) everything changed.<br /><br />So it was the combination of losing faith in Mormonism and really looking into traditional Christianity that my faith in Orthodoxy blossomed. It never would have happened if I'd closed my heart to it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>What are the main factors that drew you to Orthodox Christianity?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">At first, it was the superficial resemblance of Orthodox theology to many Mormon doctrines. So when I really examined my beliefs in Mormonism, I realized that what I actually believed was far closer to Orthodoxy than it was to Mormonism.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">I'll give one example to keep things short: theosis. I always found the idea that God was one member of an infinite family tree of Gods to be difficult to believe. I just couldn't accept it fully, even though I argued for its truthfulness. Eventually, I gave up trying to defend it and just thought to myself: "I can't accept that there is an infinite or very large number of Gods. The only way that I can really nuance Joseph Smith's teachings in a way that makes sense is by believing that there is One God that exists from eternity, and that we are his spiritual children. And we can progress to be like God and eventually join with Him in his divinity. But we don't take His place or become essentially like Him - instead, we just participate with His divinity, becoming 'gods' in a sense but not becoming God."<br /><br />But eventually I realized that that's just the Orthodox view of theosis (essentially). That information didn't need to be "restored" by a guy in New England in the 1840s - it has existed on the Earth for 2000 years.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">I came to this realization with many doctrines - I rejected Penal Substitutionary Atonement, I realized that the Orthodox temple represents a seamless theological transition from the Old Testament temple (while the Mormon "temple," at best, represents a superficial borrowing of some elements of the temple as understood by the KJV translation of the Old Testament, combined with Freemasonry), I eventually determined that the Mormon concept of "sealings" was completely redundant if you properly understand what our relationship with God is, etc. I even came to accept that the creedal doctrine of the Trinity was far from being the incoherent mess that I believed it was - it was actually a gorgeous, powerful doctrine. And above all, I believe it is True.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">So that was the sort of rational conversion to Orthodoxy, but then there was the spiritual conversion. I have experienced the most incredible spiritual depth of my life within an Orthodox context. When I felt the Holy Spirit for the first time it completely blew any conceptions I had of a "burning in the bosom" away. It involved every part of my being. Following a prayer rule (though I struggle with this) has resulted in the strangest but most wonderful spiritual revelations.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">Most of all, conceiving of God as truly a Ground of All Being that is present everywhere I go, who sustains my body and soul in existence, who loves me from the inside out, has completely enlarged my soul in ways I never thought possible. As a Mormon, I truly conceived of God as a kind of physical space-man who lived millions of light-years away on another planet, who didn't ultimately create the world (he just shaped or formed it) and did not bring my "intelligence" into existence. I just had to have faith that somehow this being could hear my thoughts, prayers, and could love me. The idea that I could go back and find any help or meaning in that conception of God, at this point, is just laughable. I respect my faithful Mormon family and those really smart Mormon thinkers and philosophers like Blake Ostler and Falcouner, Terryl Givens, Bushman, and the like. But I just don't see any coherence in any Mormon conception of God, except those that more closely resemble the Classical Theist conception.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>Did you ever consider any of the other so-called apostolic faiths (Roman/ Eastern Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy)? If so, why did you ultimately choose Eastern Orthodox Christianity?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">It would be strange of me not to at least consider the Roman Catholic Church, given that being Catholic would be far easier on me and my family than driving an hour each week to a tiny Orthodox parish. Unfortunately, there were just a number of theological issues within Catholicism that I couldn't accept. When I visit Catholic parishes I feel like something has been watered down or lost, especially in the liturgy. There's too much effort to be hip and fun. But that's just my conception. Though to be fair, Aquinas (and really, Edward Feser) was a HUGE influence on my realization that the Mormon conception of God couldn't possibly be correct even in principle. Aquinas converted me to classical theism.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">That having been said, I am not a hardcore "the Romans are heretics who need to repent and crawl to Constantinople on their hands and knees" Orthodox either. I see the two churches as a lot closer than probably most Orthodox, and I pray and long for unity. I really like Pope Francis.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>What are the main differences or changes you have seen in your life since becoming an Orthodox Christian?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">Incredible depth in prayer life. Total peace in a grounded ethical and cosmological worldview. A personal relationship with God in a way that I never thought possible. I wish I could tell myself at 15 that I could have more of a "personal" relationship with a God "without parts or passions" than a God who is literally a super-human person!</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>What is one thing about the Orthodox Christian faith, or your own personal conversion to Orthodoxy, that you would like LDS people to know?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">When I was Mormon, I looked out at the world and viewed it as sinful and unholy. I looked at other Christians with pity that they didn't have the "fullness of the Gospel." I wondered how anyone could be happy knowing that they weren't "sealed to their families for eternity."</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">I remember being on a mission and riding in a car with a few other missionaries. It was Sunday, and we drove past a liquor store where there were a few people going in and out. I remember we all let out a condescending huff when we saw people buying liquor on Sunday. One of the other missionaries actually said, "I wish we had the authority to just... kill people."</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">Yep, not only were we all disgusted by these poor souls at the liquor store, but this missionary actually thought that it would be best and most merciful if we were given the authority as missionaries to go and kill them. Like, murder them. I want to think that his statement was in jest, but nobody laughed. I perceived that it came from a weird authentic place.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">When I became Orthodox, all those arrows of judgment and pride were turned inward. Suddenly I realized that *I* am the problem. My struggle shouldn't be with other people. My judgment shouldn't point out at others. It should point at myself. I am a violent person. I'm a prideful person. I'm an arrogant person. I'm a sinner. If I really want to make the world a better place, my struggle should be with myself. It's a much harder battle, but way more rewarding and rich. Every time I get tempted to look down in judgment on another person, I look inside myself and ask, "Do I have some of the same qualities I look down on another person for having? How can I fix those things?" Rather than try to fix other people.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>Do you have a favorite saint? If so, why is she/ he your favorite?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">St. Symeon the Stylite. I read about him when I was an early morning seminary teacher and he just spoke to me. I was floored by the whole story. I just thought, "What could possibly inspire a guy to do something like that?" I was so amazed that I spoke about him in my next sacrament meeting talk! A number of ward members came up to me afterwards and were also amazed by the story. When I became a catechumen I took the name Symeon in his honor. I also like St. Thomas the Apostle, and I've always been drawn to the Archangel Gabriel.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><b>Is there anything else you would like to add?</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">Thanks for the opportunity to get some of these thoughts down.<br /><br /><b>My pleasure! Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, Symeon.</b></span></div>
Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-47122311858767545072015-03-07T16:42:00.000-08:002015-03-07T16:42:00.310-08:00Mormon-to-Orthodox converts: Jim.<i>This week is a bit different than the other interviews that will be posted on the blog over the course of the next few months. Jim has written his own conversion story, and I have posted it here for you to read.<br /></i><br />
I was born in 1957 and raised as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints<br />
(Mormon). I remember attending church regularly; I attended Sunday school, the main church<br />
meeting and all the activities, boy scouts, plays, dances, cook outs and many other things<br />
associated with the church. Like all Mormons I was taught about Joseph Smith, the first vision,<br />
and mostly from the book of Mormon every Sunday. I was taught that the Mormon Church was<br />
the only true Church and other church doctrine. I believe I had a good understanding of those<br />
teachings presented.<br />
<br />
Our neighborhood consisted mostly of Mormons, however we had one Catholic family and I<br />
think one that was some form of evangelical. All the kids got along really well, at least to me<br />
there was no religious tension, and I had no restriction placed on me to not associate with non<br />
Mormons. I knew several kids who were not allowed to play with non Mormons and I found this<br />
disturbing.<br />
<br />
At some point (pre teen) I remember receiving a little green covered bible and reading it. After<br />
reading the bible and listening to my Sunday school teachers I started having questions. I cannot<br />
remember the exact things I questioned (should have started a diary but didn’t) but I know that<br />
the answers did not sit well with me. Either the question was not answered or I was told that the<br />
question was not important. I started to have reservations that later in life developed into doubts.<br />
During this time we started to attend church less often, due to our family getting into snow skiing<br />
and boating, but still went on a fairly regular basis.<br />
<br />
It was sometime in my early teens that I started to question fully the teachings of the Mormon<br />
Church. There were many things, after reading the bible, I could not square with those things I<br />
was being taught. I remember while attending Sunday school thinking, that I had heard this same<br />
thing over and over every year. I felt I was being brainwashed and I resented it. I started not<br />
wanting to attend church and resisted when asked. After a while my parents let me decide if I<br />
wanted to attended church, which eventually became infrequent and finally never. <br />
<br />
It was during my junior high school years that really planted my rejection of Mormonism. In<br />
Utah, when I was in school, you were allowed to take LDS seminary as an elective and therefore<br />
it was used by a lot of kids as an easy class. It was in this class, the only one I attended, that I<br />
came to the conclusion that the teachings of the Mormon Church were wrong. The teacher,<br />
when pressed, would tell us that the subject in discussion, had been determined by a church<br />
prophet, or was not important and that was that. There was not room for questioning or<br />
discussion. This really did not sit well with me, I wanted real answers. My parents had always<br />
encourage us to question everything, which now that I look back on I did quite often.<br />
I ended up rejecting the Mormon Church and the any idea of an organized religion. I felt that<br />
religions run by men were going to be incorrect. Over the years I had questioned the different<br />
definition(s) of God I had encountered but never stopped believing in a Him. I still believed in<br />
God, the bible, and family. I just did not feel I needed anything else.<br />
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I had read a book on North American Indian spirituality (Seven Arrows) and felt that the Indians<br />
had a good understanding of things. It showed their belief in a higher spirit and how life’s<br />
journey, (the medicine wheel) was a guide to reaching full spiritual awareness. This was what I<br />
was feeling and it had a great impact on my outlook and mindset.<br />
<br />
I continued in this manner until I graduated from High school. At that time I decided to join the<br />
Navy. When entering in the Navy you are asked to state your religious orientation, I selected<br />
none. During boot camp I looked into other religions to just see what it was all about. I looked at<br />
the Catholic Church, did not like the thought of the Pope who decides doctrine, been there done<br />
that. A few evangelical faiths, did not like that there were always different views/interpretations<br />
on everything, and decided to not participate in anything. <br />
<br />
All this time I still felt God was with me. I believed and He watched over me, we were good.<br />
While serving on an aircraft carrier I developed a back condition that is still with me to this day.<br />
This condition would prevent me from finishing my tour of duty and resulted in my being<br />
honorably discharged from the Navy.<br />
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Upon returning home I entered College in my home town. I don’t remember going to any Church<br />
during this time and did not feel that I needed to. None of my friends were very religious and it<br />
just did not seem important. I still was where I wanted to be. God and I, in my view, were still<br />
good.<br />
<br />
It was in college that I met my future bride and best friend. We had gone to junior and senior<br />
high school together but never dated. She was working in the college cafeteria and I used to go<br />
there to study after classes. We would talk and she would on occasion take a break and sit with<br />
me. I finally asked her out and we began dating.<br />
<br />
Religion really never came up, because I don’t remember ever really discussing it in any depth.<br />
She knew I was raised Mormon and that I did not believe in it any longer, other than that it was<br />
not on our radar. It did not even occur to me to find out what religion she was. It finally came up<br />
when we decided to get married.<br />
<br />
I discovered she was an Orthodox Christian (Greek) which was never on my radar, nor did I have<br />
a clue what that really was. Did not even know we had that church in our city. It was very<br />
important to her that we get married in her church and seeing as I did not care one way or<br />
another that was fine with me. We arranged to meet with her priest to find out what needed to be<br />
done so we could get married in the Greek Orthodox Church. It was during these meetings that<br />
we were informed that my baptism in the Mormon Church was not recognized as valid by the<br />
Orthodox. They do not baptize in the name of the Trinity.<br />
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This really did not surprise me as I knew that the Mormon beliefs were really different from that<br />
of the mainstream Christian community. During this time the priest gave me materials to read to<br />
see if I was ready to enter into Orthodoxy. I read the materials and through these and<br />
conversations with the Priest I found that I already believed in what I was being presented.<br />
Christ is the head of the Church and not man. The Church through an Ecumenical council can<br />
refine doctrine but not add or delete doctrine. In Mormonism the current President/Prophet can<br />
establish/change doctrine.<br />
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God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were one God, the Trinity. In Mormonism each is a separate<br />
being and not God except for the Father.<br /><br />
Baptism is putting on Christ, uniting with him, and removing of your sins. In Mormonism<br />
baptism is not about putting on/uniting with Christ, but remove sin, and making a covenant with<br />
God promising to keep his commandments and is a specific requirement to get into heaven,<br />
which is why they baptize dead people,. This practice has always seemed wrong to me seeing<br />
that when you are alive you make your decisions on what you believe and the bible says once<br />
you are gone it’s over.<br />
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The bread and wine were the blood and body of Christ, in Mormonism the bread and water is<br />
just a symbol and used as a renewal of your commitments to God. There were other things but<br />
you get my drift.<br />
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After a few meetings and discussions the priest determined that I was ready and could be<br />
baptized into the Orthodox Church.<br />
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The baptism service was awesome, the spitting on Satan and turning to and accepting Jesus was<br />
enlightening. The church where I was baptized had a large metal box for its adult baptismal font. <br />
As most know during an Orthodox baptism the person is anointed with oil before emersion and<br />
the water is also blessed with oil. After the third emersion the priest asked me to standup. To my<br />
chagrin I was so oiled up that each time I tried to stand up I slid and went under again. After<br />
numerous times the priest reached in and helped me to stand telling me that that was enough<br />
emersions and I was good to go. I received my first cross and I felt very much renewed and new. <br />
We proceeded to get married. The wedding service had a major impact on me. Never had I<br />
experienced anything like it. The service was not just getting married and exchanging vows (no<br />
exchanging vows in the Orthodox wedding service), but God uniting us into one with him. The<br />
emphasis on self sacrifice to the other, as Christ sacrificed himself for the church and becoming<br />
one. That has stayed with me to this date.<br />
<br />
We began attending services. The church services and songs were mainly in Greek therefore I<br />
followed along in the Liturgy book which had both Greek and English text, not the easiest thing<br />
to do. I was really taken with the beauty and majesty of Holy Week and the Pascal midnight<br />
service. Attending Pascal service was enlightening, so much different from my youth, which was<br />
just another meeting.<br />
<br />
After our first child we began getting more involved, helping in Sunday school and participating<br />
in the yearly festival. I found that I was comfortable, I believed, was involved but not fully<br />
immersed in worship. This situation remained for a number of years and two priests.<br />
Things changed when we got a new priest Father Dan. He is an excellent witness for Christ. He<br />
made some amazing changes that took awhile to be accepted by the parish. Services were now<br />
mostly in English He requested everyone to participate in services, to sing (now a lot in English),<br />
to actively join the worship and get involved. Bibles were placed in the pews, weekly bible study<br />
and classes. He had classes on the history of salvation and the ecumenical councils.<br />
He taught me that communion was not something you did every so often but should be done as<br />
much as possible (except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no<br />
life in you, John 6:53), as long as you are right with God. I participated in my first sacrament of<br />
confession with him. Confession really had not been made a priority to me before and I never<br />
really thought a lot about it. I knew we had the sacrament but I thought after baptism unless you<br />
did something really bad you were ok. He taught me that as we get closer to the light (Christ) we<br />
begin to see all the little marks the light exposes on us. He used the onion as a metaphor that as<br />
we continue to strip away the layers we expose those underneath. What a liberating and<br />
humbling experience and I still strive to continually strip away layers.<br />
<br />
Wow what a difference this had on me. Now I started to see what a treasure I had been given.<br />
What a pearl of great price this was. This man had changed me forever, I was now participating<br />
fully, I was no longer just there.<br />
<br />
I had joined the Orthodox Church, its worship and all, but now I was actually fully engaged.<br />
Services have greater meaning, things like daily prayers are something that I looked forward to<br />
and most of all the doctrine and theology is now mine.<br />
It has been 30 years and I still continue to deepen my understanding of the faith; the depth of<br />
which still surprises me, no matter what I learn there is always more.<br />
As I look back over my journey I see God was always with me, he did have a plan for me, finally<br />
guiding me to the truth.<br />
<i><br /></i>
<i>“We have been saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. We are being saved by our active </i><br />
<i><br /></i>
<i>participation in the Sacramental life of the Church as a work of love manifesting the fruits of God's </i><br />
<i><br /></i>
<i></i><br />
<i>Grace. We will b saved if we remain in him at His glorious Second Coming.”</i>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-37530253009947736132015-03-01T12:43:00.002-08:002015-03-28T22:37:20.419-07:00Introducing Mormon-to-Orthodox Converts: Thomas.<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>This is the first in a series of interviews with Mormon-to-Orthodox converts I will be publishing periodically. I am looking forward to seeing what those interviewed have to share.<br /><br />I first interviewed Mormon-to-Orthodox convert, Thomas. Here it is!</i><br /><br /><b><u>MtO</u>: There seem to be two main categories that those with an LDS background fall into. First, there are individuals who are or were faithful, active participants, fulfilling their callings and other LDS-specific duties (i.e. temple service, mission service); then there are those who have an LDS background, but have never been particularly active, or have been semi-active at best. Tell us about your LDS background and whether or not you see yourself as falling into one of these two categories. Where did you grow up? Were you and your family active in the LDS faith? How many generations of your family have been LDS? Did you serve a mission? Did you marry in an LDS temple? (Please answer as few or many of these questions as you wish)</b><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><u>Thomas</u>: I grew up in Whittier, California, and attended the 7th Ward. We were (active) and I was at maximum on activity. My mother converted when I was an infant, my father a decade later. I was sealed to them in the Los Angeles temple.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Did you leave the LDS faith before or after learning about Orthodox Christianity? If before, have you been an adherent of any other faith traditions along the way?</b><br /><br />I left the LDS faith before learning about Orthodox Christianity. I realized I could not believe in the truth claims of the LDS Church while preparing for my mission. When I left I had no faith. I converted to Christ several years later while taking a required religion course on the Pauline Epistles. Instead of using the course syllabus I used a Catholic patristically sourced commentary.<br /><br /><b>This all occurred during your time at Brigham Young University, correct?</b><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #373e4d; line-height: 13.9636354446411px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yes. The class was at BYU.</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>How did you find out about Orthodox Christianity?</b><o:p></o:p></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">I began going to various churches but none felt right until I went to an Orthodox Church. I chose the GOA because this was the Church I went to.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>What are the main factors that drew you to Orthodox Christianity? Did you ever consider any of the other so-called apostolic faiths (Roman/ Eastern Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy)? If so, why did you ultimately choose Eastern Orthodox Christianity?</b><br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">I am a little different than most Mormon Orthodox converts because I did not reject other </span>versions of Christianity. I followed God where he led me just as Joseph Smith taught me. I am very uncomfortable with standard antiMormon rhetoric. I simply followed the Light the Lord sent my way and I advise everyone to do the same.</div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>That is great. I think it is beneficial to see conversion as acceptance of a chosen path rather than rejection of alternatives.<br /><br />What is one thing about the Orthodox Christian faith, or your own personal conversion to Orthodoxy, that you would like LDS people to know?</b><br /><br />I became Orthodox because of Joseph Smith not despite him.<br /><br /><b>Very interesting. One of the most pivotal points in the LDS narrative is indeed when Joseph Smith Jr. asks God to reveal to him the true faith. </b><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Do you have favorite saints? If so, why are they your favorite?</b><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />The Panagia (the Holy Virgin Mary) because I am attached to Mount Athos, her garden and I feel closest to her. Saint Simeon of Simonopetra because of being attached to the monastery and having visited his cave many times and hearing personal testimonies from the monks about his constant miracles and presence at the monastery. Mary Magdalene because I have venerated her incorrupt hand, the hand that touched the Lord, many times. Saint Thomas the Apostle because he was not a go along to get along guy.<br /><br /><b>Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, Thomas.</b></span></div>
Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-77082184322451458602014-12-18T11:54:00.000-08:002014-12-18T11:58:10.392-08:00Roman Catholic Arguments for Papal Supremacy, part II: St. Irenaeus of Lyons and the meaning of "convenire"In my previous post I considered what can and cannot be concluded from the text of Matthew 16:18-19, which is often used by Roman Catholic apologists to support their specific doctrine of Papal Primacy. In this post I examine the passage most frequently cited by Roman Catholics seeking to bolster their view of Papal Primacy, passage 3.3.2 from St. Irenaeus's <i>Against Heresies:</i><br />
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<span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">successions</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> of all the </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Churches</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">evil</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">self-pleasing</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">unauthorized</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">tradition</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> derived from the </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">apostles</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">known</a><span style="color: blue;"> <span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"></span></span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Church</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> founded and organized at </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Rome</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> by the two most </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">glorious</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">apostles</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Peter</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> and </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Paul</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">; as also [by pointing out] the </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">faith</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> preached to </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">men</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, which comes down to our </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">time</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> by means of the </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">successions</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> of the </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">bishops</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">. For it is a </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">matter</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> of </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">necessity</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> that every </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Church</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> should agree with this </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Church</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, on account of its preeminent authority,</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">that is, the </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">faithful</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> everywhere, </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">inasmuch as the </span><a a="" apostolic="" href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.</a><span style="color: blue;">"</span><br />
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Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm<br />
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In the first line of interest, St. Irenaeus says "...<span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">the very great, the very ancient, and universally </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">known</a><span style="color: blue;"> <span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"></span></span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Church</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> founded and organized at </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Rome</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> by the two most </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">glorious</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">apostles</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Peter</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> and </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Paul</a>..." which is interesting for two reasons. <b>First,</b> St. Irenaeus speaks about the church in Rome as a whole, making no effort to emphasize who leads the Church of Rome or drawing any special connection between the episcopate in Rome and St. Peter. In fact, Irenaeus speaks about both St. Peter and St. Paul as those responsible for the Roman Church's existence. Once again, there is no mention of any special connection between St. Peter and the episcopate alone since St. Irenaeus is focused on the Church of Rome as a whole.<br />
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If it was St. Irenaeus's objective to demonstrate that the Bishop of Rome is the primate over all Christendom because he succeeds St. Peter, he would have focused his attention specifically on the apostle who grants this authority, St. Peter, and on the Bishop of Rome himself whom Roman Catholics claim is the reason for the Church of Rome's preeminence. Instead, St. Irenaeus focuses on the Church of Rome in its entirety, basing its importance on both St. Peter and St. Paul.<br />
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When St. Irenaeus does refer to bishops, he says the following "...<span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">; as also [by pointing out] the </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">faith</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> preached to </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">men</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, which comes down to our </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">time</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> by means of the </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">successions</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> of the </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">bishops</a>.<span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">" </span><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">St. Irenaeus speaks of multiple successions of multiple bishops, thus referring to bishops both within and outside of Rome. Like other churches in Christendom, the Church of Rome is important and maintains legitimacy because it preserves and professes the same faith as all the other churches.</span></span><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"><span style="color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> </span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">The last and final portion best supports the Roman Catholic position, and is the section emphasized by apologists:</span></span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br />"For it is a </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">matter</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> of </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">necessity</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> that every </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Church</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> should agree with this </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Church</a><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, on account of its preeminent authority,</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">that is, the </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">faithful</span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> everywhere, </span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">inasmuch as the </span><a a="" apostolic="" href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: blue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.</a><span style="color: blue;">"</span><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><br /><br />It is tempting to conclude that Roman Catholic apologists are correct in their interpretation of this passage, but closer examination undermines such conclusions. The first complication for the Roman Catholic apologist is the Latin word <i style="font-size: 16px;">convenire</i>, which in the passage above is translated as "agree with," but might also be translated as "come together," "assemble," or "meet." In fact, the Perseus classics resource database, run by Tufts University and held as the preeminent internet resource for classical Latin and Greek, doesn't even list "agree with" as one of the primary options. That said, there are numerous examples in Latin texts of convenire being translated as "agree with" based on the context in which it is used. The relevant question, then, is whether the context of the passage provides a reasonable basis for translating "convenire" as "agree with," and it is here that the debate comes to a standstill since we cannot be sure how St. Irenaeus intended for his message to be translated since both "agree with" and "meet with" fit the context of the passage. What is clear, though, is that once again a passage Roman Catholic apologists claim clearly demonstrates their case is shown to be ambiguous.<br /><br />Additionally, even if one concedes that St. Irenaeus claims all faithful should agree with the Church of Rome there remain obstacles for the Roman Catholic apologist. The first of these obstacles lies in why St. Irenaeus deems it necessary for faithful to agree/ meet with Rome. Is it because the Bishop of Rome holds Petrine authority over other churches? Is it because the Church of Rome as a whole has demonstrated is faithfulness to Christendom and its mission and thus has garnered respect? Once again, St. Irenaeus's meaning is unclear.<br /><br />Because Roman Catholic apologists make a positive claim, being that the above passage from St. Irenaeus demonstrates their view of Papal Primacy, it is their duty not only to put forward this quote as self-evident, but to answer the questions I have raised in this post, namely:<br /><br />1. How does this passage demonstrate that the Church of Rome's preeminence is rooted in the Bishop of Rome who is the unique successor of St. Peter?<br /><br />2. Why is "agree with" the best translation of "convenire ad" in this passage?<br /><br />For further reading, I recommend the following:<br /><br /><a href="http://lettersonorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/a-discussion-of-the-papacy-and-irenaeus/">http://lettersonorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/a-discussion-of-the-papacy-and-irenaeus/</a></span></span>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-72538134387503162382014-12-08T17:22:00.001-08:002014-12-08T17:22:30.464-08:00Roman Catholic Arguments for Papal Supremacy, part I: What can and cannot be established by the plain text of Matthew 16:18-20.In this post I consider the most prevalent Roman Catholic argument for Papal Supremacy, being that Matthew 16:18-19 demonstrates that St. Peter, and thus the Bishop of Rome, acts as the head of the Christian Church's hierarchy in Christ's stead. I argue this inference in not justified by the plain reading of the text. I love my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters and I recognize that without Roman Catholic friends, colleagues, and resources I never would have found my way home. Although argumentative, I pray my words are interpreted in charity as I intend them.<br />
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To begin, here is the Greek text of Matthew 16:18-19. Each verse is followed by the English translation.<br />
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<b><span style="color: blue;"><span class="word" id="ka)gw/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"><span style="font-size: 13px;">18</span>κἀγὼ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="de/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">δέ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="su/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">σοι</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="le/gw" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">λέγω</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(/ti" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ὅτι</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="su/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">σὺ </span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"></span><span class="word" id="ei)mi/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">εἶ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="*pe/tros" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">Πέτρος,</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="kai/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">καὶ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="e)pi/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἐπὶ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="ou(=tos" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ταύτῃ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">τῇ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="pe/tra" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">πέτρᾳ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="oi)kodome/w" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">οἰκοδομήσω</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="e)gw/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">μου</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">τὴν</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="e)kklhsi/a" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἐκκλησίαν,</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="kai/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">καὶ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="pu/lh" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">πύλαι</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="a(/|dhs" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἅδου</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="ou)" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">οὐ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="katisxu/w" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">κατισχύσουσιν</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="au)to/s" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">αὐτῆς.</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span></span></b><br />
<sup style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"><span style="color: blue;"><br />And (I) to you I say that you are Petros (nominative), and on this petra (dative) I will build my assembly, and the gates of hades will not overcome/ prevail over it.</span></sup><br />
<b><span style="color: blue;"><sup style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">19</sup><span class="word" id="di/dwmi" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">δώσω</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="su/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">σοι</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">τὰς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="klei/s" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">κλεῖδας</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">τῆς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="basilei/a" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">βασιλείας</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">τῶν</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"></span><span class="word" id="ou)rano/s" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">οὐρανῶν,</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="kai/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">καὶ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(/s" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ὃ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="e)a/n" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἐὰν</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="de/w" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">δήσῃς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="e)pi/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἐπὶ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">τῆς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="gh=" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">γῆς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="ei)mi/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἔσται</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="de/w" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">δεδεμένον</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="e)n" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἐν</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">τοῖς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="ou)rano/s" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">οὐρανοῖς,</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="kai/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">καὶ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(/s" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ὃ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"></span><span class="word" id="e)a/n" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἐὰν</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="lu/w" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">λύσῃς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="e)pi/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἐπὶ</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="o(" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">τῆς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="gh=" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">γῆς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="ei)mi/" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἔσται</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="lu/w" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">λελυμένον</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="e)n" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">ἐν</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span></span></b><br />
<b><span style="color: blue;"><span class="word" id="o(" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">τοῖς</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span><span class="word" id="ou)rano/s" style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';">οὐρανοῖς.</span><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"> </span></span></b><br />
<b><span style="font-family: 'Palatino Linotype';"><span style="color: blue;"><br /></span></span></b>
<span style="color: blue; font-family: Palatino Linotype; font-size: x-small;">I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and that which you bind on the earth is bound in the heavens, and that which you free/ loose on the earth will be freed/ loosed in the heavens.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype;">In verse 18, as I have indicated, the nominative form, Petros, is first used. The nominative case in Greek is used to designate the subject of a sentence. The next use, petra, is in the dative case which, in this case indicates an indirect object to which an action will be applied. Some have used the dative use to indicate that "petra" does not refer to the person St. Peter, and, while this opinion is shared by numerous Church Fathers, I do not think that conceding that it is, in some sense, the person St. Peter upon whom Christ builds his ecclesia is problematic for Eastern Orthodoxy. Thus, for the sake of this article I will concede that Christ establishes his ecclesia on St. Peter.<br /><br />Verse 18 establishes that Christ in some way uses St. Peter to establish his ecclesia on earth. That is it. This verse says nothing about how the ecclesia is to be governed, what St. Peter's role in that governance is, whether or not Peter is to have a successor or successors, or what authority his successor(s) would have. Thus Eastern Orthodox Christians can concede that Christ gives first the keys to St. Peter and that Christ uses St. Peter to establish his ecclesia without conceding anything to their Roman Catholic interlocutors.<br /><br />In verse 19 St. Peter is given a special authority that essentially gives him heavenly power in establishing structure and laws of Christ's ecclesia. From the text we can infer that this inheritance is important and signifies legitimate authority; however, once again, what is absent are the very things Roman Catholicism needs to make its case: no mention of who is to succeed St. Peter. It is possible, then that St. Peter might have had multiple successors as did Charlemagne after his death.<br /><br />It is clear that Matthew 16:18-19 itself does not establish the Roman catholic position. That being said, although there exist a surprising number of Roman Catholics who believe these verses alone establish their case, the majority of Roman Catholics acknowledge that Matthew 16:18-19 are only one piece of a larger historical and theological argument. In my next post I will investigate the broader scope in which this argument falls. I will first examine who the ante-Nicene Church Fathers saw as St. Peter's successor.<br /><br /><i>Note: Because I wish to maintain intellectual honesty and give this topic adequate consideration, I invite questions, rebuttals, comments, and suggestions. I would especially be interested in reading what arguments or quotes from the Church Fathers you think best support the Roman Catholic position.</i><br /><br /></span>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-84571174372479576072014-11-30T09:57:00.002-08:002014-11-30T09:58:16.401-08:00My latest encounter with LDS (Mormon) missionaries, or: To debate or not to debate?Since my departure from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, visits from LDS (Mormon) missionaries have become a semi-regular occurrence. As much as it pains me to admit it, when I finalized my departure from the LDS faith I harbored much disdain for the religion and its official representatives. When I saw missionaries approaching, or was visited by them at home, I thought only of ways to expose to them the errors of their faith, and I often wasn't gracious in my efforts to put my thoughts into action.<br />
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At some point, perhaps due to the grace provided me by my entrance into the Orthodox faith, my anger subsided and eventually disappeared altogether. This was most apparent yesterday when I invited two young men representing the LDS faith into my home. Rather than assessing the situation to determine the most opportune moment to pounce, I instead attempted to take interest in and listen to what the missionaries had to say. I was, of course, more interested in the missionaries themselves than the message they had to share.<br />
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The best part of the experience was that these two young men reciprocated. Whereas missionaries in the past were eager to remove themselves from my defensive, sometimes combative presence, my most recent visitors wanted to learn more not just about me but about my faith. I shared the Church's history and how Orthodox Christians view Christ, and they asked questions aimed not to lead the conversation back to Mormonism, but to learn more about my beliefs.<br />
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By attempting to show these two young men that I cared about them and what they had to say, rather than using them to practice my debate techniques and boost my ego, I shared the Orthodox Christian faith and it didn't fall on deaf ears. Mine is only one experience, but I did find that sometimes listening and sharing is more effective method than argument. This may be especially true with LDS missionaries who have been conditioned to see attacks against their faith as signs of their divine calling.Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-56756714056504482142014-10-27T15:32:00.001-07:002014-10-27T15:32:44.138-07:00A follow-up by Jerry Thomas<div>
<i>Last week, Jerry Thomas offered a comparison of Mormon and Eastern Orthodox Christian temple theology. A reader by the name of Christian Piper offered a thoughtful critique. Here is Jerry's response:</i></div>
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<i><br /></i>Rather than respond to Christian Piper’s interesting observations via comments, I am responding with another posting. My response enlarges on the themes presented quite elliptically in the original post. </div>
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First, you object to my breaking the arcana disciplina, the ancient promise among Christians not to speak of the Mystery, even avoiding mention that bread and wine were involved, let alone the theology of the “metabole,” the method, whatever it may be, by which the believer receives Christ’s flesh and blood in the Eucharist. While it is interesting to note that both the Divine Liturgy and the endowment are shrouded in mystery, the cat has been out of the bag so long for Christians that we forget even that it exists, as we constantly have to field questions about this topic. Since I openly discussed the theology of the veil being Christ’s flesh in the Eucharist as the fulfillment of our participation in the Temple—which is the most sacred thing I believe, the heart of it all—I thought that LDS wouldn’t mind “taking the lid off” of their rites, as has been done with Christian rites by hostile readers for many, many centuries, and comparing the Orthodox understanding of crossing the veil and the LDS understanding, which could not be accomplished without examination of the key moment in the central rite, secret or not.</div>
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Secondly, I agree that increasing understanding of the role of temples and how that became Christian liturgy makes Mormonism more like Orthodoxy than it is like other Christian faiths. Thus, the thing you like about Mormon temples, their exclusiveness, applies to the Orthodox as well. To “hide the Mystery” we’ve erected an entire battery of walls, screen, veils, curtains, and doors, but in Holy Communion all of those come down, and only those deemed worthy by a less rigid, but by no means less effective, policing of the matter by the clergy are allowed to approach and receive. Orthodoxy, while open to all to worship with us, maintains a tight control on who is actually “in the Church,” which means receiving Holy Communion.</div>
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I am from a Masonic family, as well as a Mormon family. My son is an active Mason. I understand that a direct comparison between the initiatory rites all Masons go through to become a Master Mason and the LDS endowment does not extend to the text. This is why I mentioned specific elements. I was undergirding my thesis that something changed between Kirtland and Nauvoo and we know among the things that changed was Joseph moving from not being a Mason to being a Mason. The Masonic rituals sparked his prophetic imagination and developing the endowment was part of an entire new program he was developing at the time of his death that was to culminate in his receiving publicly what had already been done in private, proclaiming Joseph Smith to be the “King of Israel.” Between Kirtland and Nauvoo, something happened.</div>
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As to your last point, I do think that not invoking the Holy Name of God when one passes through the veil in the Holiest Place is not in keeping with Temple Tradition. The only time in the First Temple when anyone entered the Holiest Place was on the Day of Atonement. And then only after sacrificing a goat with a sign on it reading, “YHWH,” and eating its raw flesh and drinking its blood, does the high priest, now bearing a sign saying “YHWH,” for it is YHWH’s blood that is shed and it is YHWH who enters the Holiest Place with His Blood, does the high priest dare to enter beyond the veil, bearing the blood and the incense, and stand before the Cherubic Throne. Now this action became the action of each and every Christian when receiving Holy Communion. Now each Christian bears Jesus’s Name (the Saving Name of God) and acts as a high priest in Israel, even infants, and eats of the flesh and blood of the bloodless sacrifice instituted by the Lord Himself. I find it quite odd that the endowment fails to invoke the Holy Name of Jehovah (keeping with endowment terminology) while crossing through the veil.</div>
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The Holy Name of God has power and is to be used sparingly and appropriately is a lesson we learn from Scripture and from the practice of the Second Temple to only utter YHWH’s Holy Name aloud on the Day of Atonement. The Name and Atonement go together. Leaving it out at the very moment when the Atonement is being ritualized does raise my eyebrow, for one. Although I don't know, nor can anyone know, why the Holy Name of God is lacking in the Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood, I can hazard a guess. Consistent with Joseph Smith's theological tendencies towards the end of his life, it seems clear that he was moving to a concept of God that we might call "transpersonal." It wasn't God the Father Himself who was "eternal," it was the "Priesthood," the culmination of which was the "Priesthood of God." In the Second Token the "mystery" is revealed: there is no Creator God but only an eternal "priesthood" that births the "gods."</div>
Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-71847094069502256432014-10-22T13:31:00.000-07:002014-10-22T13:41:01.076-07:00Guest Post: "Health in the Navel: A Comparison of Mormon and Orthodox Christian Temple Theology" by Jerry Thomas<i>I am very excited to share with you a post by fellow Mormon-to-Orthodox convert, Jerry Thomas:</i><br />
<i><br /></i><span style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.9400005340576px; white-space: pre-wrap;">One unique feature of the LDS Church, especially considering its time and place of origin, is its insistence on the importance of temples. When the Saints were sacrificing in Kirtland to build the first Temple it was because the Lord had promised them an “endowment” with “power” upon completion of the temple. In Section 110 of the Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph described the experience he had with Oliver Cowdery of seeing and hearing Jesus announce: “7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house. 8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.” The interesting feature of this “endowment” is that it lacked any of the features of the later “endowment” as developed in Nauvoo under clear Masonic influence. The vision of Christ that Joseph had in Kirtland, however, was immediately following the Lord’s Supper, the key event in the dedication.</span><br />
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Although the first Mormons got their ideas about temples from the Holy Bible, the Orthodox Church has been building and worshiping in temples since the founding of the Church. A true temple, in Orthodox understanding, is where “two or three” are gathered in Christ’s Name for the purpose of participation in the Holy Mysteries, particularly Holy Communion. These impromptu temples came first, often in people’s houses, and only later did the Church become established enough to build buildings.</span><br />
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In the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, with the Lord’s Supper as the central rite, we find ourselves well within the common Christian tradition. It is with the further development of the “endowment” as a separate rite, with the Lord’s Supper still celebrated in the temples on occasion, but no longer the centerpiece, that we find ourselves in unfamiliar territory in the traditions of Christianity. This new rite contained features taken directly from Masonic ceremonies, including the handshakes and the Five Points of Fellowship, as well as the pen</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.9400005340576px; white-space: pre-wrap;">alties. Many of these elements were eliminated or downplayed in the 1990 revision of the endowment. </span><br />
<span style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.9400005340576px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.9400005340576px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Even though the Lord’s Supper was eliminated from the central temple rite, “washing and anointing” were added. These can be seen as a repeat of baptism and confirmation (by anointing, as in the Orthodox Church) or both can be seen as a continuation of the rites accompanying the Day of Atonement when the high priest had to bathe in the ritual bath and vest to participate in the rite. </span><br />
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In the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, the Lord (as His Body and Blood) comes out of the veil to be among His people (through their participation in Holy Communion). In the LDS Endowment, the opposite happens. The participant enters the Celestial Room through the veil after reciting the Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. The text of this is apparently the most sacred part of the Endowment, as it is often eliminated even in “exposes” of the Endowment. A careful examination of this text, then, is in order to understand what is happening in the Endowment.
“Health in the navel, marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews. Power in the priesthood be upon me and my posterity through all generations of time and throughout all eternity.” First, one notices that neither God nor Christ are invoked to cross through the veil! The first part seems to be an invocation for health and the second part invokes “the priesthood,” not God or Christ as the origin of the “power” to be passed on through all time. Second, while the Scripture ties together the “veil” and Christ’s “flesh,” making clear that Holy Communion is how one “enters through the veil” ([Heb 10:20 KJV] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh) and this connection persisted at Kirtland, the Nauvoo endowment removes even mention of Christ from the action of entering through the veil. Third, while it is clear that the Scriptures are being quoted in the first part ([Pro 3:8 KJV] “It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones”) is there a Scriptural basis for the remainder? Job’s description of the mythical monster “Behemoth” is the only possible Scriptural basis for the remainder of the first sentence: “[Job 40:16-17 KJV] Lo now, his strength [is] in his loins, and his force [is] in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.” Here we find “strength,” “loins,” and “sinews” together, the only place this happens in the Holy Bible.
The second sentence of the Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood may be alluding to these Bible verses: </span><br />
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[Exo 29:9 KJV] And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest's office shall be theirs for a perpetual statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons.
[Exo 40:15 KJV] And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.
Here we find the idea of the “priest’s office” or the “priesthood” being “everlasting throughout their generations,” reminiscent of “the power of the priesthood” invoked to “be upon me and my posterity for time and all eternity.” </span><br />
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In the New Testament and subsequent Orthodox teaching “priesthood” refers to several different concepts: 1) the Aaronic priesthood of the Second Temple 2) the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ and 3) the “priesthood of all believers,” which is participation through the Mysteries in Christ’s Melchizedek priesthood. In later developments, a fourth meaning was added, the “priesthood” of the Christian clergy, which priesthood derives from the “priesthood of all believers,” which priesthood is Christ’s Melchizedek priesthood. There is no role for the Aaronic priesthood, a hereditary priesthood, in the New Testament nor in the subsequent Christian Church. The titles, however, of the Aaronic priesthood were incorporated into the Church with “bishops” being “high priests,” “presbyters” being “priests,” and “deacons” being “Levites.”</span><br />
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Thus, the present-day Orthodox Church has buildings called temples with a “holy place” and a “prosthesis” (Table for the Showbread). Often the “holy place” is divided from the rest of the temple by a veil and an icon screen or wall. It is from this place that several “entrances” are done—with the gospel book before the readings and with the prepared sacrament before the blessing, culminating in the entrance of the Lord Himself as His Body and Blood during Holy Communion. It was following Holy Communion when Joseph Smith saw Christ in the Kirtland Temple. This is what one would expect based on the Holy Bible and Christian tradition. Between Kirtland and Nauvoo something changed and Holy Communion ceased being the culmination of the Holy Mysteries in Mormonism. Instead, an odd rite with Masonic roots culminating with an entrance of the believer into the “celestial kingdom” while invoking the power of the “priesthood,” presumably the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ, without reference to the Holy Name of Jesus or to Christ or to God, has taken the place of Holy Communion in Orthodox Christianity.</span>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com15tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-2141613733777184142014-10-05T14:58:00.000-07:002014-10-05T14:58:00.993-07:00"Was there a Great Apostasy?" A great review from Soul Device<h1 style="background-color: white; border: 0px; clear: both; color: #404040; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 34px; font-weight: inherit; line-height: 44px; margin: 40px 0px 10px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">
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Some kind of “apostasy narrative” is required to explain why a group that did not exist for nearly 2,000 years can consider itself the true expression of Christianity. Obviously, if the Church founded by Jesus did not go into apostasy, there would be no excuse to create a new group or “restore” what was “lost.” Unlike most Christian sects that attempt to locate themselves (in some form) throughout Christian history, the Mormons accept and explain their non-existence by claiming the Church founded by Jesus Christ disappeared from the Earth shortly after its creation.</div>
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I wrote previously of the problem of the Latter-day Saint (LDS or Mormon) story of a “great apostasy” of the early Church<a href="http://souldevice.wordpress.com/2014/05/27/mormonism-and-the-apostasy-narrative/" style="border: 0px; color: #117bb8; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank" title="Mormonism and the Apostasy Narrative">HERE</a>. Now I would like to expose some of the errors of the primary text used by the LDS in support of such an idea: Mormon Apostle James E. Talmage’s book <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/35514" style="border: 0px; color: #117bb8; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank"><em style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">The Great Apostasy: Considered in the Light of Scriptural and Secular History </em></a>(hereafter: “TGA”). Written in 1909, the point of Talmage’s work was to present “the evidence of the decline and final extinction of the primitive Church” as evidenced by “scriptural record and in secular history.” The reason this alleged apostasy is so important to Mormons is that it under girds their movement’s very existence. This is admitted on the very first page of TGA<em style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">:</em></div>
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<strong style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">If the alleged apostasy of the primitive Church was not a reality, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims.</strong> (TGA, Preface – emphasis added)</div>
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<br />Read more at: <a href="http://souldevice.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/was-there-a-great-apostasy/">http://souldevice.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/was-there-a-great-apostasy/</a>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-49030008850078619702014-07-11T13:30:00.000-07:002014-07-11T13:31:37.734-07:00Mormon Deification and Orthodox TheosisThe LDS church recently published an article that sheds light on the <a href="https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng">the LDS view of becoming like God</a>. This effort to clarify a difficult and misunderstood aspect of the tradition is laudable and I look forward to seeing what else the LDS church has to offer in the future. That said, I was moved to write this post by the way in which the author uses the Early Church Fathers to make his/ her case and the comparison of the LDS tradition to Eastern Orthodoxy.<br />
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First referenced is this passage from Irenaeus' <i>Against Heresies:</i><br />
<i><br /></i><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> "For it is thus that you will both controvert them in a </span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">legitimate</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> manner, and will be prepared to receive the </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: darkblue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">proofs</a><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> brought forward against them, casting away their </span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">doctrines</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> as filth by means of the celestial </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: darkblue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">faith</a><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">; but following the only </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: darkblue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">true</a><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> and steadfast Teacher, the </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: darkblue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">Word of God</a><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: darkblue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">our Lord Jesus Christ</a><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">, who did, through His transcendent </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: darkblue; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">love</a><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."</span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Comparing LDS and Orthodox Christian views of deification is a wonderful example of the importance of defining terms and theological background since both faiths can endorse the statement "</span></span><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm" style="background-color: white; color: darkblue; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">our Lord Jesus Christ</a><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">, who did, through His transcendent </span><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm" style="background-color: white; color: darkblue; font-size: 16px; text-decoration: none;">love</a><span style="background-color: white;">, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself" while understanding it completely differently.<br /><br />Members of the LDS faith believe that God the Father and the Son are both beings with an immortal body of flesh and bone. One might say the Father and Christ are the perfection of human evolution in the LDS view. Thus when a Mormon says that Christ died so humans can become like Him they mean this in a much more literal way than traditional Christians (Christians who believe the faith as stated in the Nicene Creed); they will be not only just like Christ, but also the Father who has a physical body akin to theirs. <br /><br />To understand why traditional Christians understand Irenaeus' statement, and deification in general, differently than the LDS faith, one must understand how they view the Holy Trinity. For traditional Christians, God is the foundation of all that exists, the wellspring from which everything is created and sustained; He who is everywhere present, filling all things. Thus God is not just different from us in degree (as is the case in the LDS faith) but different in kind. He is not constrained by the spacio-temporal aspects of our material existence because he is the creator and sustaining force of our universe. We cannot ever be just like God because, by our nature, we are forever dependent upon him. <br /><br />That said, God's creation reveals to us certain aspects of His nature, and this is especially true in the case of humans who are the pinnacle of God's creative work. In the traditional Christian view, when God says "let us make man in our image" He is referring to the mental and spiritual characteristics of humanity which makes it different from God's other creatures not only in degree, but in kind. Our self-consciousness, will, and immortality are the ways in which our image is similar to God's.<br /><br />It is tempting to interpret the use of the term "image" as used in Genesis in a materialistic way. After all, the images we encounter most often are physical depictions. However "image" or "likeness" need not refer to physicality. If my mother tells me I remind her of her grandfather, this does not necessarily mean I resemble him physically. It may be my voice or personality that makes our "images" similar. </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">Likewise, Irenaeus leaves open to interpretation what he means when he states Christ becomes what we are so we might become what He is. Mormons interpret this in a more expansive manner; we will become exactly what Christ is, save for unique physical and personality characteristics. For traditional Christians, Irenaeus is telling us that through Christ we too can become sons and daughters of God, but sons and daughters that will always be different in kind and dependent upon the Grace of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />Mormons and Orthodox Christians both believe that we can become like Christ, but mean very different things. The LDS Church believes we can be like Christ in both His human and His divine nature, whereas Orthodox Christians believe, being dependent material creations, we share only in Christ's human nature, a human nature which itself can be perfected or divinized.</span></span>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-70707201121578443302014-07-11T12:16:00.002-07:002014-07-11T12:16:25.640-07:00Change of name and intentionAfter a long period of discernment I have become an Orthodox catechumen. Having, in a sense, become more settled in my journey (although recognizing the journey has just begun) I have decided to steer this blog in a direction different than it has taken in the past. As I am now convinced of Orthodoxy's truth I have much less interest in actively criticizing the merits of the LDS faith and other faiths. I also question what I can offer that has not already been provided by better voices. I hope to offer something a bit less prevalent in the blogosphere- my perspective as a 6th generation cradle Mormon who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. I imagine this will primarily consist in commentary on things Mormonism and Orthodoxy, especially where there is overlap between the two.<br /><br />From here on out my blog will be known as Mormon to Orthodox rather than Comparative Religion to fit its new direction. <br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />MtOSeraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-33683030594039713572014-02-17T13:20:00.000-08:002015-05-18T10:56:40.725-07:00Personal revelation (subjective experience) as the basis of conviction.Living in an area where much of the population is LDS provides a unique atmosphere where discussions on topics related to religious belief often arise. A few of my closest LDS friends and I have pressed one another on such matters to points that might make others feel uncomfortable or violated. Both sides usually begin these conversations by appealing to less subjective factors like history, science, and philosophy. Occasionally, though, a Mormon friend eventually claims that their primary, and sometimes only reason for believing rests on what they call a personal revelation or personal witness. I can sympathize with such claims since I too see experience as essential to one's spiritual life; however I am convinced that insurmountable problems arise for those who rely on subjective bases alone or when other factors clearly contradict their interpretation of their subjective experience.<br />
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For instance, imagine there are three women, one Muslim, one Christian, and one Jewish. They all claim that they know their religion is true because God has shown this truth to them through personal revelation. However, all three of these faith traditions have competing claims. If Jesus is in fact the divine Son of God, then Islam and Judaism are, at least in this regard, in error. Likewise, if Muhammad is God's last prophet, then Judaism and Christianity are in error. Put simply, not all of these women can be equally correct in their convictions. Figuring out whether a faith tradition is true can be difficult (some might say impossible) work, so the three women might settle for saying "my faith is right for me, but maybe yours is right for you." Under such a view religious affiliation becomes little more significant than one's preferred color or food. Additionally, the claim of the LDS faith and many other faith traditions is a strong, authoritative one. The LDS faith, according to its official doctrines, claims not to be just one of many different-but-equal options, but the most true religion. Such a claim, as any good debater or philosopher knows, places the burden of proof on the LDS faith.<br />
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"The LDS church is true because the Holy Spirit revealed to me that it is so" and similar claims cannot be used to surpass this burden of proof since such a claim is relevant only to the subject making the claim. One can always fall back on "try it for yourself and then you will see," but what if the individual challenged does try and still isn't convinced? I doubt members of the LDS faith would be comfortable concluding that this disproves their faith tradition.<br />
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Authoritative claims require proofs or arguments that are understandable and sound to all parties involved in a dialogue. I invite LDS voices to respond to my post so that I might better understand why Mormons stay Mormon and so I might be corrected where I have made errors in this post.Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-48616610078349705442013-09-03T13:49:00.003-07:002013-09-03T13:55:55.291-07:00"Why do I do what I do?" or, "What motivates my decisions?" The recent discussion in the comments section of <a href="http://comparativereligion32.blogspot.com/2013/07/is-it-possible-to-choose-hell.html">a previous post</a> has me wanting to further explore why exactly it is we make the decisions we do and incorporate these thoughts into the universalism debate. <br />
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As far as rational humans are concerned, I believe the motives an individual has for choosing x are quite limited. Taking ice cream as an example, an individual will choose or not choose a flavor depending on the foreseen consequences of such a choice. In scenario A, an individual chooses mint chocolate chip because he sees it as a good or desirable choice. Perhaps it is his favorite flavor, or perhaps he chooses it because he has never tried it before and wants to expand his horizons. Regardless of his motives, what we can almost certainly say is that he will not make a choice that he sees as harmful. If our subject knows mint chocolate ice cream causes him to break out in a painful rash, if it tastes like bile, or any other of a number of unpleasant possibilities, it is very probable, if not guaranteed, that he will not select that specific flavor.<br />
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Rational human beings do not typically choose things that are undesirable simply because they are undesirable, and as the level of undesirability increases, the likelihood that it will be chosen decreases. Our very nature and biological make-up screams out at us to avoid such decisions. As you read this you may think to yourself "I could go make an undesirable choice right now if I so wished." Perhaps you have in mind touching a hot stove and you think this would prove my case wrong, but keep in mind that, while burning your hand in and of itself is undesirable, the further satisfaction of winning an argument turns this action into one that is desirable. I am confident that you would not intentionally hold your hand to a hot stove if not for some sort of satisfaction. Our motives cannot be separated from the berceived outcomes and subsequent benefits that arise from such a decision.<br />
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Let us now incorporate the above into the question of who goes to hell and why they go to hell. Within what may be called the high church circle, comprised of (but not limited to) Anglicans, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians is an idea that God does not forcefully send souls to hell against their own will. Instead, those who find themselves in that most horrendous of states are there by their own choosing. As C.S. Lewis states in <em>The Great Divorce</em>, the gates of hell are locked from the inside, by those who choose by their own volition to remain in their suffering.<br />
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This view is a lot more easy to swallow than the idea that God forces us into the abyss against our own will, but upon closer examination I believe it may make less sense. If we hold that to really choose something, in a "you are responsible for your decisions" sort of way, is to understand what you are choosing, it becomes difficult to imagine how choosing eternal damnation could even be a possibility. If we say that hell isn't actually that bad, perhaps akin to Mormonism's Telestial kingdom where souls can still be happy, then the choice seems much more plausible, but most Christians want to maintain that hell consists only of suffering, perhaps the worst sufferings imaginable. Could an individual in possession of their faculties really choose endless suffering?<br />
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Perhaps one could fall into eternal suffering as a result of insanity, but would a good God allow such insanity to persist? Perhaps an individual could initially reject God but eventually regret his decision. Does God's mercy and willingness to forgive cease after death? Perhaps we lose our ability to choose after death. Without free will, can we still be considered human?<br />
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We make our choices based on perceived desires. Seeing that the characteristics of hell make it less desirable than eternal joy or peace it necessarily follows that a rational human being will not make a decision that will leave them without satisfaction.<br />
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I would like to note that my inclination towards Christian Universalism is not rooted in its being easy. I have altered my opinion of difficult things before after considering the arguments for and against (abortion, homosexuality, pornography, masturbation). I am a universalist for the same reason I am pro life. I considered the arguments both for and against and found universalism more compelling, both intellectually and emotionally. That being said, I strive to be open to changing my perspectives if they are false and for this reason I welcome any comments on this matter.Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-84939591368684337262013-08-10T14:59:00.002-07:002013-08-10T16:32:24.900-07:00The not-so unique beliefs of Latter-day SaintsMany of my LDS friends and acquaintances are familiar and well-read in both their own and other faith traditions. They are aware of the problematic aspects of LDS history and some even acknowledge problems in LDS theology that lead them to question and struggle with their faith; however they persevere and choose to remain faithful in spite of these struggles. One reason that has been given for this continued commitment is the unique truths that the LDS Church has revealed and/ or preserved. There are certainly things unique to the LDS tradition, and the specific amalgamation of beliefs is certainly unmatched, but taken individually many of these supposed truths are seen to be more of a polemical misunderstanding or can be found in other faith movments and traditions that predate the foundation (or restoration if you believe the claims of Joseph Smith Jr.) of the LDS faith. In this post I will look at just a few examples: Eternal Marriage, Eternal Families, continuing revelation, and Baptism for the Dead.<br />
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Note: I acknowledge the reality that the similarities between the LDS faith and other faith traditions by no means disproves the faith, and are even to be expected if it truly is a restoration of an ancient form of Christianity. My goal in this post is not to disprove the LDS faith, but to reveal similarities between LDS beliefs and the beliefs of other faiths of which people may be unaware.<br />
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<strong>Eternal Marriage</strong><br />
I think it first important to note that the use of eternal in this phrase is dissimilar from the way in which eternal is used elsewhere. When Mormons speak of Eternal Marriage they do not mean timeless, having always existed as many Christians and other theists often mean when they use the term, but rather everlasting. Thus Eternal Marriage might be better communicated as everlasting marriage, since the classical theist might otherwise think Mormons believe they have always been married to their spouse.<br />
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To my knowledge the belief in eternal marriage, at least in the West, is not widespread, but there are two traditions that come to mind that share the LDS belief in eternal marriage: Swedenborgian and Islam.<br />
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<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/swd/swedenborg.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="Emanuel Swedenborg" border="0" height="200" src="http://www.sacred-texts.com/swd/swedenborg.jpg" width="150" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Emmanuel Swedenborg</td></tr>
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Swedenborgians, also known as the New Church, is a Christian movement shaped by the writings of the 17th century theologian Emmanuel Swedenborg. In his work <em>The Delights of Wisdom Pertaining to Marriage Love</em>, Swedenborg states "Marriage that is truly spiritual lasts forever, even in heaven after death. There, the two remain male and female as to form, and become one angel as to their soul. As a couple they live a life of useful service in the Lord's Heavenly Kingdom, which is perfected to eternity. If a person dies unmarried he or she will find a spouse in heaven." While this statement highlights some differences between the LDS and Swedenborgian concept of heavenly marriage, it also highlights striking similarities, such as the idea that those who do not marry on earth will marry in heaven.<br />
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A major part of the Islamic view of heaven is the idea that one will experience both spiritual and physical pleasures in their heavenly bliss, marriage being included among these pleasures. The website <a href="http://www.questionsonislam.com/question/how-will-marriage-be-paradise">Questions on Islam</a> has the following to say:<br />
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"Eating, drinking and marrying are regarded among the highest bounties of Paradise. According to the statements of the Quran and hadiths, the family life that is established in the world will continue forever if both spouses deserve to go to Paradise; their marital relations will go on endlessly..."<br />
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"The believing men and women who died before they got married in the world will be married in Paradise; all of the single people will be married there."<br />
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<strong>The Christian belief in temporal marriage, and how it is often misunderstood by Mormons</strong><br />
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The popular position pertaining to marriage, being that marriage ceases at death, stems from Matthew 22:30, where Christ states "For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven." Because of the unique way in which Mormons are conditioned to view marriage, the idea of marriage ending is a horrible thought. I wager that this is so because Mormons equate marriage ending with two individuals being separated from one another. By better understanding the traditional Christian understanding of marriage, one discovers that the relationship between a husband and wife in this life does not end at death, but is instead transformed. This is because of what sort of thing the marital union is, according to the Christian. <span class="p"><br /></span><br />
<span class="p">In the Christian worldview, marriage carries with it several purposes. It is a monasticism of sorts wherein the individual is able to learn to better love and serve another, overcoming the vice of self-centeredness and allowing one to grow closer to God. Marriage also acts as a conduit for the creative powers that allow for the nurturing of new souls that can come to know God and eventually live in his presence. Thus the purpose of marriage, and thus the kind of thing marriage is, is to unify one's self to another individual in a way that distinct from other relationships one may have and provide a nurturing environment for any children that may result from this union. In light of this definition one can see reason Christians don't believe in marriage in heaven- it isn't needed. Unity will have been achieved and procreation will no longer be necessary. This does not mean that one will no longer know and love their former spouse. They may even spend time together, walking around heaven hand in hand. Who knows? It just means their union will no longer meet all the requirements for what a marriage is, and thus will not be a marriage in this sense. </span><br />
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<span class="p"><strong>Eternal Families</strong></span><br />
<a data-ved="0CAUQjRw" href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=y7ZLrzai8ZxGJM&tbnid=qbPgF8ChuV4xWM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwalktheavenue.com%2Fwere-all-members-of-the-body-of-christ-but-im-not-the-colon%2F&ei=PswGUuzzOsGgyAH_9IBA&bvm=bv.50500085,d.aWc&psig=AFQjCNGwtn8Pq5Kc0rzjwX4CeZWI2TrwiQ&ust=1376263465026494" id="irc_mil" style="border: 0px currentColor; clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img height="320" id="irc_mi" src="http://walktheavenue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/body-of-christ.independencemochurch.jpg" style="margin-top: 0px;" width="228" /></a><br />
<span class="p">Much of what has been said above regarding Eternal Marriage can be applied to the idea of eternal families. It is not that Christians and other non-Mormon faiths deny that we will be together in heaven; instead it is that they understand the nature of these families differently. Mormons believe that, in order for the family bond to be preserved in the hereafter, a special rite called "sealing" must be carried out. Traditional Christians and individuals of other faith traditions believe that no such rite is necessary. If you make it to heaven you are automatically integrated into one big happy family consisting not only of the family members you had on earth, but everyone else in heaven as well.<br /><br />For further reading on this subject, my friend at "Saints and Saints" has written a post titled <a href="http://saintsandsaints.wordpress.com/2013/08/05/top-11-things-every-mormon-should-know-about-eastern-orthodoxy/">Top 11 Things Every Mormon Should Know About Eastern Orthodoxy</a> in which he addresses this subject.</span><br />
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<span class="p"><strong>Baptism for the Dead</strong></span><br />
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<a data-ved="0CAUQjRw" href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=T6EO8tt7QATbLM&tbnid=hN45ZSr9YJH21M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ficonreader.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F01%2F06%2Fbaptism-of-christ-the-theophany-icon%2F&ei=Lc0GUqIex_LIAcuwgZgC&psig=AFQjCNHV5oF-o7rVEA0sQaczoMHLogScWA&ust=1376263839863421" id="irc_mil" style="border: 0px currentColor; clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img height="320" id="irc_mi" src="http://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/2167592729_a5fe59317b.jpg" style="margin-top: 60px;" width="212" /></a><span class="p">The reasoning behind this practice is pretty straight-forward. Christ and his disciples teach that one must be baptized to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Since baptism, from the earliest days of the Christian movement, has been done by water, many Christian faiths have continued this practice. Where the LDS faith is unique among modern Christian faiths is their practice of baptizing on behalf of the deceased. </span><br />
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<span class="p">Christ's very words explicitly command baptism: "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5, NIV) Either salvation is limited to the relatively few humans who have been baptized by water during their mortal existence, Christ's words here are not to be taken literally, or there must be a means by which those who have died may be baptized. </span><span class="p">Many Christians, uncomfortable with the idea that salvation should be a lottery of sorts, or completely predestined against our will, have rejected the first view. They may say that only those who know they ought to be baptized must be baptized. Others argue that there is more than one way to be baptized. Some are baptized by water while others experience a spiritual baptism in the life to come. Regardless of which idea they choose, it seems difficult to get around Christ's own words.<br /><br />The LDS faith believes they have solved this problem through the practice of Baptisms for the Deam, a ritual in which a living person is baptized in the name of a deceased individual. Other faiths, including early fringe Christian sects, the New Apostolic Church, Old Apostolic Church, and the non-Christian Mandaeans in Iraq also have a similar practice. On one level this ritual makes a great deal of sense, especially in light of Christ's statement; however there remain two problems. First, only those for whom the LDS church has genealogical records may have this baptism-by-proxy done in their name. This means that the vast number of individuals who have and will come into the world that evade the LDS radar are still out of luck. Second, when a person is baptized, it is their whole person, body and spirit, that is being immersed. It seems that in order for a baptism-by-proxy to be efficacious, the spirit of the deceased individual would have to somehow become the person being baptized, which I believe the LDS faith rejects. <br /><br /><br /><br /><strong>Conclusion</strong></span><br />
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<span class="p">In 7,000 years of recorded human history various religious and spiritual ideologies have arisen. It is no surprise, then, that the LDS faith is found to be less unique in some respects than many Mormons believe. That being said, it remains unique in its combination of beliefs. </span>Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-48227794633450232422013-08-08T18:48:00.002-07:002013-08-09T12:45:28.614-07:00The Bishop of Rome in the Early Church<div style="text-align: center;">
<b>Introduction</b></div>
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Numerous issues and disputes prevent reconciliation of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communions. Among these issues and disputes none is more crucial than the role the Roman Church and its bishop ought to play in the Christian Communion as a whole. </div>
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The Roman Catholic Church claims that this primacy belongs not to the Church of Rome, but the Bishop of Rome, or Pope, who is held to be the apostolic successor of St. Peter, the prince of the apostles. This primacy is believed by Roman Catholics to carry with it the authority to exercise universal authority over the Christian Communion as a whole. Additionally, since the first Vatican Council held from December 1869 to October 1870, the Roman Catholic Church has declared that, when speaking <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm">Ex Cathedra</a>, the Bishop of Rome is able to make infallible decrees, binding on the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Catholic churches in communion with Rome. <br />
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The Eastern Orthodox Communion acknowledges that the Church of Rome did indeed hold primacy in the pre-schism Church, and many Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that if the Church of Rome reunited with the Eastern Orthodox Communion, this primacy would be restored. It should here be noted that Eastern Orthodox Christianity typically sees primacy as first belonging to the Roman Church and second to its bishop. While there is disagreement among Orthodox Christians regarding what exactly this primacy entailed, they are in agreement that it is not the universal supremacy Roman Catholicism claims it to be.</div>
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Better minds than mine have debated the issue of Roman Primacy from both sides of the dialogue for centuries, and thus I likely won't have much, if anything to add to the discussion, but I will offer my unique perspective on the matter. I hope that because I am not yet heavily invested in either tradition I will be able to offer a more fair and impartial consideration of the issue. I welcome any insights, criticisms, and corrections you are willing to offer. </div>
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<b>St. Peter and the Apostles</b></div>
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<a href="http://www.arthermitage.org/Painting/Icon-St-Peter.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="http://www.arthermitage.org/Painting/Icon-St-Peter.jpg" width="118" /></a>The Roman Catholic claim of Papal Supremacy is founded primarily on the Apostle Peter and his role among the Apostles and early Church. The first argument typically offered by Roman Catholic apologists is <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:18-19&version=RSV">Matthew 16:18-19</a>, wherein Christ claims that He will build his Church upon "Petros" or the rock which seems to indicate Peter. There has been much debate over the true meaning of these verses. Some have highlighted that in Greek, believed to be the original language of the New Testament gospels, two different conjugations of the the word for "rock" are used. From here it is argued that two different metaphorical rocks are being sopken of in this passage. I personally don't find this reality significant for two reasons. First, both uses of the Greek for "rock" seem to indicate Peter. Second, Christ would have spoken Aramaic, a language that has only one word and conjugation for "rock." </div>
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Another area of dispute lies in understanding what exactly Christ is saying to Peter in verse 18. Some, including Early Church Fathers, have argued that when Christ says to Peter "you are a rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church" He is referring to Peter's confession and not Peter himself. While I agree that Peter's confession plays an important role in this conversation, it seems silly to claim that in calling Peter a rock he is referring solely to his confession. If this is so, why did Christ not instead say "your confession is a rock"? Further, why would Peter's name change if it was solely his words and not he himself to which Christ referred? It seems clear that Christ's words refer to the person Peter at least in some sense.</div>
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Even acknowledging that Christ is in some sense indicating the man Simon-Peter as the rock in verse 18, there exist two legitimate criticisms of the Catholic interpretation and use of this passage. First, I believe a legitimate interpretation of Christ's statement is "because of your confession of faith you are a rock," and thus anyone else who makes a similar confession is also a rock. At this point the Roman Catholic may object, asking "If that is the case, why is it only Peter's name that was changed?" To this I would reply that Peter's name may not have been changed because he was granted a special authority, but rather as a special recognition that he was the first to make such a confession. <br />
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Even though I believe there are criticisms of the Roman Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19 worth consideration, I am also comfortable accepting that Peter held a special role among the apostles and in the early Church, and, as stated previously, both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy recognize this role. If one grants that Peter was a leader among the apostles and first Christians some may consider the case closed. However, there remain several key questions to consider before considering the matter settled, including a determination of what Peter's leadership entailed, whether he passed on this leadership role, whether the Bishop of Rome and he alone is the successor of Peter in this role, and what this role would entail.<br />
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From the perspective of those outside the Roman Catholic Church, the claim of universal jurisdiction and papal infallibility were inventions originating around the time of the Schism and dogmatized at the first Vatican Council, respectively. Rome, however, claims that these Papal roles are legitimate developments tracing back to the very origins of Christendom. In light of this claim, it seems the first place to look in order to solve this question are the writings of the Early Church Fathers themselves. Below I will consider what I believe to be the passages that best support the Roman Catholic case, being that universal Papal jurisdiction and infallibility have existed since the establishment of the Church. These passages will be followed by a personal analysis of said passages:</div>
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<a href="http://benedictseraphim.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/stcyprianofcarthage.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="http://benedictseraphim.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/stcyprianofcarthage.jpg" width="227" /></a><span style="background-color: white; color: #0e0907;"><b><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;">St. Cyprian of Carthage</span></b></span><br />
<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: blue;">“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [<em style="border: 0px currentColor; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">cathedra</em>], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (<em style="border: 0px currentColor; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">The Unity of the Catholic Church </em>4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).</span> </span></span><br />
Here Cyprian clearly speaks to the Primacy of Peter, which being agreed upon by both East and West is not an issue. What is significant to the disagreement is Cyprian's concluding questions which make the crucial implication that unity with the Chair of Peter is essential. If one understands "the Church" as Roman Catholics, being one, single, universal body headed by one supreme bishop, then the Roman Catholic case seems bolstered. However, if one understands "the Church" as Eastern Orthodox understand the term, meaning one of several bodies of believers headed by the chair and successor of Peter who is that regional church's bishop, then the passage takes on a radically different meaning. Instead of seeing Cyprian's implication as the necessity of being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, one may instead interpret his implication as the necessity of being in communion with one's regional bishop, who is one of several successors of Peter. This interpretation harmonizes with the statement of the historian Jaroslav Pelikan, who referencing Matthew 16:18-19, <span style="background-color: white; font-family: inherit;">states "<span style="line-height: 16.89px;">As Roman Catholic scholars now concede, the ancient Christian father Cyprian used it to prove the authority of the bishop—not merely of the Roman bishop, but of every bishop" Pelikan, Jaroslav, </span><i style="line-height: 16.89px;">The Riddle of Roman Catholicism</i><span style="line-height: 16.89px;"> (NY: Abingdon Press), p. 78.<br /><br />What the Roman Catholic apologist often omits is that St. Cyprian, who was the Bishop of Carthage, saw himself as sitting in the chair of Peter, believing that all bishops are his successors. His additional statements seem to further refute the idea that he viewed the Bishop of Rome as the modern Roman Catholic Church:</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">"For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops</span><span style="background-color: white;">, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; </span><span style="background-color: white;">since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another</span><span style="background-color: white;">." (The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian, The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics, 250 AD)</span></span><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="line-height: 16.89px;"><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"> </span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: inherit;">I admit that, in light of the Eastern Orthodox perspective, it seems odd that St. Cyprian would state that "there is but one Church and one chair." However, I do not believe that this statement explicitly affirms the Roman Catholic position. Rather, Cyprian may intend to state that there is but one Church under each bishop, to which the adherent is subject and Christians should not divide themselves from this unity. To the Alexandrian, there is only one church to which they should submit, being the Church of Alexandria, and the same would go for the Antiochian, Athenian, Corinthian, and so on. Given his other statements, and his own understanding of Petrine succession, I believe this is a more reasonable interpretation.</span></span></span><br />
<a href="http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/images/people/Irenaeus_icon.gif" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/images/people/Irenaeus_icon.gif" /></a><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="line-height: 16.89px;"><br /><b style="font-family: inherit; line-height: 16.89px;">St. Irenaeus of Lyons</b></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: blue; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">"</span></span><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: blue; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [</span><i style="color: blue; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">propter potentiorem principalitatem</i><span style="color: blue; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">] – that is, the faithful everywhere – inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere."</span><span style="color: blue; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 16.89px;"> </span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 16.89px;">In claiming that "every Church should agree with this Church," that is, the Church in Rome. Irenaues seems to make the Roman Catholic case for papal infallibility. If it is indeed true that all churches must necessarily agree with the Church in Rome what else can this mean but supremacy? </span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.89px;">This passage has been controversial due to how the Latin phrase "conveniere ad" has been translated. While it is possible to translate "conveniere ad" as "agree with," it is also possible to translate said phrase as "assemble at." In fact, the English word "convene" which is derived from the Latin "conveniere" means "to come together" or "to cause to assemble." Thus a possible translation of this passage is not that every Church should <i>agree </i>with the Church of Rome, but that all Churches should come together or assemble in Rome. For more on this topic I recommend <a href="http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/christia/library/irenaeus.html">this link, which better explains the Latin Vulgate.</a></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 16.89px;">Beyond controversies of translation, it is interesting that Irenaeus points not to the Bishop of Rome, whom Roman Catholics argue holds primacy, but to the Church of Rome, which, according to Irenaeus, it holds due to its faithfulness and not any special, unchanging authority. This emphasis harmonizes with the claim that Rome holds primacy not due to its unique succession, but because of its honorable and political standing in Christendom. Honorable because it was established by, as Irenaeus states, "</span></span></span><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul" and because it was often an example of fidelity to Christian doctrine</span><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="line-height: 16.89px;">; political because Rome was the seat of the Roman Empire in terms of power and culture. Christians in Rome would have no doubt additionally been praised for their faithfulness under oppression.</span></span></span></div>
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<a href="https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6joETGLqrU_XlIhNvUStViBio8p2sGZOtzWXnz-A1S8hr0cYi" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6joETGLqrU_XlIhNvUStViBio8p2sGZOtzWXnz-A1S8hr0cYi" width="98" /></a><span style="color: black; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><b style="background-color: white;">St. Peter Chrysologus of Ravenna</b></span><span style="background-color: #f6f6f6; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, Verdana, sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="color: blue; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">"We exhort you, honorable brother, to submit yourself in all things to what has been written by the blessed Bishop of Rome, because St. Peter, who lives and presides in his see, gives the true faith to those who seek it. For our part, for the sake of peace and the good of the faith, we cannot judge questions of doctrine without the consent of the Bishop of Rome." </span></span><span style="background-color: white; color: blue;"><span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, Verdana, sans-serif;">[Letter 25:2 to the Priest Eutyches in </span><a href="http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0440-0461__SS_Leo_I._Magnus__Epistolae__MLT.pdf.html" style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS", Trebuchet, Verdana, sans-serif;"><i>PL</i> 54:742D-743A</a><span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, Verdana, sans-serif;">]<br /><br /><span style="color: black; font-family: Times, "Times New Roman", serif;">I personally find this quote to be the most persuasive of the lot. Here St. Peter Chrysologus commands that one should submit to all the writings of Rome's bishop because of St. Peter the Apostle, which implies succession from the Prince of the Apostles. Further, Chrysologus states that decisions regarding doctrine cannot be made without first receiving consent from the Bishop of Rome. <br /><br />While I do think this quotation lends some support to the Roman Catholic position, it is important to highlight what is not being said and the historical context in which Chrysologus was living. To the former, he makes no mention of infallibility or supremacy so it is unclear as to whether he commands obedience to Rome because of these attributes, or because that particular bishop and his successors, up to that point, have shown themselves to be worthy of submission. In other words we can ask whether the Bishop of Rome is to be followed because he follows church teachings, or because he possesses some special, infallible authority not held by other bishops.<br /><br />If Rome was seen as a bastion of orthodoxy during the period in which Chrysologus wrote it provides further reasons for why he would give such a command. He may be saying something akin to "Rome has been unwavering in its Christian faith for the past few centuries, and it holds hierarchical primacy among the churches, therefore it is essential that we seek council with Rome before we make any judgments." This view would be one perfectly acceptable to Eastern Orthodoxy. </span></span></span></div>
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My objective here has not been to prove the opposition's case, as I recognize that the authors of these quotations could very well have viewed the Bishop of Rome in a way similar to the contemporary Roman Catholic Church. Rather, I wish to highlight alternative interpretations to quotations that Catholic pop-apologists so often think are a knock out proof of their position. Contemporary historical consensus among both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox historians seems to be that the early Christian Communion was governed in a much more collegial fashion than the contemporary Catholic Communion, but the Bishop of Rome may yet have held more authority than some Eastern Orthodox Christians are willing to concede.<br />
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Although the critic can point to many actual and potential problems stemming from Papal Supremacy, there are many apparent benefits to such a leader. Roman Catholics can much more clearly indicate what their church believes regarding certain moral and doctrinal matters, such as contraception. The unity experienced under the Pope also seems to have allowed for an efficiency of sorts, which may be seen as both a positive and negative attribute. When disputes arise the Roman Church a council is assembled in relatively quick fashion. In contrast, the Eastern Orthodox Communion seems to have been planning their next council for the past 500 years or so, or they claim that another council isn't necessary. <br />
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In the end the only question we ought be concerned with in our pursuit for truth is whether the authority held and occasionally exercised by the Bishop of Rome, as claimed by the Roman Catholic Church, has a legitimate historical and theological basis. In light of the above the position seems at best debatable, if not altogether erroneous. <br />
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For further information regarding this topic I recommend <a href="http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/orientale_lumen_xv_conference">this audio resource from the Orientale Lumen Conference</a>, where Catholics and Orthodox Christians gathered to discuss the topic "Rome and the Communion of Churches: Bishop, Patriarch or Pope?”<br />
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Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-57115766143062124362013-07-12T15:28:00.003-07:002013-07-12T15:28:29.040-07:00"From the Latter-day Saints to the Communion of Saints"A blogosphere acquaintance of mine recently began <a href="http://ldsguy2catholic.wordpress.com/">this blog</a> in which he plans to discuss his conversion to the LDS faith, and why he decided to revert to Roman Catholicism. As a now former Mormon considering conversion to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy his project resonates with me.<br /><br />I look forward to his future posts and I hope you will check it out as well!<br /><br /><a href="http://ldsguy2catholic.wordpress.com/">http://ldsguy2catholic.wordpress.com/</a><br />
Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-68776283693275474352013-07-02T16:02:00.002-07:002013-07-17T12:34:27.748-07:00Is it possible to choose Hell?Until relatively recently in my life I viewed the Christian perspective of Heaven, Hell, and who goes there in a base, karmic "If you life a good life, you go to Heaven; if you live a bad life, you go to Hell" sort of fashion. A few years ago I discovered that soteriological opinions are much more complex and diverse than this. On the end which I will deem "fundamentalist" exist theists who hold that living well isn't sufficient, or isn't relevant at all. What is crucial is the beliefs the individual holds. For instance, regardless of how saintly a person was in life, a certain sort of Christianity may claim that they are going to Hell because they did not believe Jesus (and it must be the correct Jesus) is their savior. A more intriguing and merciful perspective I first encountered in C.S. Lewis'<i> Great Divorce</i>, which, similar to Dante's <i>Divine Comedy</i>, tells the story from the perspective of a character traveling through Hell and then Heaven.<br />
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Rather than being forced into the treacherous abyss by a God set on punishing sinners for their crimes, the damned in Lewis' Hell remain by choice. Some refuse to forgive, others refuse to let go of pride. By holding onto such vices these souls cannot let go and enter into Heaven. The doors of Lewis' Hell are locked from the inside, suggesting that if the damned soul wishes, he or she may leave. <br />
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Faith traditions such as Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism hold a similar view to that presented in Lewis' tale: the damned are such because they freely reject God's love and forgiveness. Unlike Lewis, the Roman Catholic Church has denied the idea that a soul may potentially escape Hell if they so choose. Instead, the Magesterium holds that a soul damned will remain so for eternity. Many in Orthodox Christianity are in agreement with their Western brothers; however, there exists a school of thought in Orthodoxy that argues, in similar fashion to Lewis, that Hell is not <i>necessarily </i>permanent, and forgiveness remains possible after death. An example of this lies in the words of Met. Hilarion Alfeyev of the Russian Orthodox Church who, according to <a href="http://thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3132">this source</a>, states "<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 16.796875px;">God is Love, all He created and sustains is always loved by Him. Even the creation that rejects Him continues in existence by His love. This unfathomable Divine Mercy can even make hell* "Gehenna," temporary."</span></span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">This is all a disorganized introduction to the question presented in the post title: Is it possible to choose Hell? After considering what free will is, I aim to argue that if an individual remains in Hell only as long as they freely reject God, the actor will eventually cease this rejection. Additionally, I will argue that confining an individual to Hell merely because they were in a state opposed to God at death is pointless and runs counter to the mercy of God. </span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">I believe that the only reasonable way to understand free will in matters of morality is the ability to choose between perceived goods. Some may argue that free will is the ability to choose between good and evil, but I believe the following example demonstrates that this view of free will is incoherent:</span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">Imagine coming across a man wailing in agony as he saws off his own hand. Now, before reading any further ahead (don't cheat!) take a few minutes to speculate about why on earth he is doing such a thing. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Done speculating? Okay. Perhaps you notice he is in a </span><i style="line-height: 16.796875px;">Road Warrior </i><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">scenario in which he is desperately attempting to escape an imminent explosion to which he is handcuffed. Perhaps he is just sitting there in no apparent danger and thus you assume that he must be deranged. In either case I would wager you wouldn't assume it is just a perfectly reasonable, sane man sawing off his hand for no reason. </span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">As rational actors we have reasons or motivators for making decision, and we make these decisions because we see them as desireable or good. This isn't to say that our desires or perception of the good can't be off. Most of us at one time or another are victims of less than ideal desires or perceptions, but when we make a decision we are choosing what we </span><i style="line-height: 16.796875px;">perceive</i><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;"> as desirable, and this is what is important. </span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">Someone may object, claiming that they have knowingly made a bad decision. I think there is merit to this objection. I can imagine myself intentionally burning myself to prove a point, knowing it is bad to act in such a way. However, I would wager that I, and anyone else, would eventually reach a point at which they would no longer make the free decision to burn themselves. For example, imagine that, instead of having an intense burning sensation only during contact with the hot surface, the sensation remained for an extended period of time, be it 10 minutes, 10 hours, 10 days, and so on. My guess is that, assuming you are relatively sane, you would no longer be willing to act in such a way. This is because as rational actors we make decisions based on a cost-benefit analysis.</span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">If we apply the above to our consideration of damnation, a few things seem to necessarily follow:</span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">1. We don't choose Hell at all, since a rational actor wouldn't make such a choice. Instead our damnation is a punishment enforced against our will.</span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">2. We choose Hell only until we realize that there is a more desirable option, or that the cost is no longer worth the choice.</span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">3. We remain in Hell because our ability to choose the good is compromised. Perhaps we don't know heaven is an option, or perhaps we are so mentally ill that we don't have the capacity to make choices at all. Would a loving God let us remain in such ignorance or dementia, or would the God who is Love grant us clarity so we can act rationally?</span><br /><br /><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">4. We choose Hell because the alternative would be worse. I don't mean </span><i style="line-height: 16.796875px;">appears </i><span style="line-height: 16.796875px;">to be worse, but is actually worse. Perhaps in Hell you are roasted for 8 hours a day, but in Heaven it is 10 hours a day. This example is ridiculous on a number of levels, including that it completely reverses our perspective of what is and isn't desirable. Nonetheless it remains one of the only ways in which I could imagine a soul remaining eternally in Hell.</span><br />In addition to the above questions, I think it is essential when considering the idea of eternal suffering to ask "What is the point?" There are many potential answers to this question, the most common of which include "to respect humanity's free will," "so God can exercise His perfect justice," or "to punish people for their choices."<br /><br />The first has been covered above. I argued that at some point a person would no longer will such a thing, and their damnation would only continue against their will due to ignorance, divine force, or other impairment.<br /><br />I have heard the second answer, "so God can exercise His perfect justice/ punish sinners," numerous times from Christians of all stripes. I have never been able to understand how a person can see eternal punishment as just. Even if we hold that the punishment should fit the crime, it seems that it would always be finite. Hitler would be forced to experience all of the suffering he caused, and this may amount to 600 million years worth of pain, but it would end. Because we can only ever choose or cause a finite amount of suffering and sin, the punishment could only ever be finite. </span></span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Times, 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br />Further, it is often held that the purpose of punishment is behavioral correction. A child is grounded or scolded in an attempt to deter them from deviant behavior in the future. If we hold this view of punishment, then eternal punishment is a nonsensical concept, since it would fail to be corrective.</span><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><br />A final argument I would like to consider is that damnation is eternal because when an individual dies he or she leaves time, and because actions or choices are possible only in a temporal setting it becomes impossible. This argument is easily (and quickly) refuted, especially if one believes in a literal, physical resurrection: <br /><br />1.A physical body can exist only in a spatial environment. <br />2. A body can move and think in a spatial environment<br />3. When a body moves and/ or thinks it exists temporally, since to move from one state to another requires a temporal before, during, and after.<br />4. Therefore, humans will exist in a temporal afterlife.<br /><br />A heaven in which we cannot think or act as we do now is a heaven in which we would no longer be human. Thus if one maintains that we will be something similar to ourselves as we exist now, it cannot be said that we leave time when we enter into God's kingdom.<br /><br />In light of the areas I have touched on above, I cannot help but be inclined towards universal reconciliation. If Hell exists only as long as it is chosen, then I firmly posit that it cannot be necessarily permanent. I may be completely in error on these subjects, and if so I hope for a reader who will provide his corrective insights.</span></span></div>
Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com16tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-38272971352413113182013-06-04T16:28:00.000-07:002013-06-04T16:28:22.076-07:00Where to go from here?I feel my absence of posts reflects my recent position, being that I am not certain where to go from here. When I began this blog I was set on converting to the Roman Catholic faith, but as I have immersed myself in the tradition and history of the Eastern Orthodox faith I have increasingly felt drawn in this direction. <br /><br />This all brings up an interesting question: How do we know when we are on the right path? Finding the answer to this question is obviously a complex matter, and as I stated in an early post I don't think an individual can rely solely on subjective experience. That being said, I wonder if I haven't been giving personal experience enough weight in my consideration. <br /><br />I am still inclined to believe that reason can inform us that there is a God, and philosophy and history might even provide an argument for which faith tradition seems most valid, but relying solely on these methods for our relationship with the Divine misses the mark. It is akin to choosing a spouse solely based on compatibility figures. This method may indeed lead to success, but once the relationship begins it is not these figures that make the relationship great, but the growth, beauty, and love that comes with the experience. Likewise, facts, figures, and arguments have their place in establishing one's faith, but once one moves from "dating" God as it were to wedding his or herself from God, perhaps the basis of the relationship should change as well.<br /><br />If someone asks me why I love my wife, my first thoughts do not consist logical arguments, but memories and images my words would fail to adequately express. Ideally, I believe our initial answers for why one is a theist should be similar.<br /><br />Because I am still in what I perceive as the initial stages of my journey with God, I will continue to consider issues from a rational perspective, but I thought it important to express my view of what faith should be.<br /><br /><br /><br />Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com7tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-78603393591798585152013-05-11T11:05:00.003-07:002013-05-11T11:08:02.202-07:00ChangesIt has been some time since my last post because my perspective of things has changed as I have continued my journey with Christ. This change of perspective brings with it changes to this blog, the primary of which being that I will be giving the Eastern Orthodox faith more consideration. In the past I was unfair in my assessment of Eastern Orthodoxy, and I hope to make amends for that from here on out.<br />
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From now on this blog will not be concerned only with the LDS and Roman Catholic faiths, but also the Orthodox faith.Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.com0