tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post6877628369327547435..comments2022-04-11T04:32:52.081-07:00Comments on Mormon to Orthodox: Is it possible to choose Hell?Seraphimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-78679455825530674532013-08-31T02:49:10.509-07:002013-08-31T02:49:10.509-07:00As I said, but perhaps I wasn't being too clea...As I said, but perhaps I wasn't being too clear: You have to very consciously and very sincerely embrace the thing itself, NOT its fruits. If you can't embrace the road, you can't arrive at the destination. But that "road" is a very specific form of existence. Either you WANT to exist in that way, <i>regardless of the outcome</i>, or you don't. It's really THAT simple. YOU have to ACTUALLY embrace the thing ITSELF. It is the thing itself that has to genuinely fulfill you, not its fruits. But if the thing itself is genuinely and sincerely undesirable to all parts of your being, mental knowledge of its outcome makes NO difference whatsoever. (I'm afraid I just can't explain it better than this).The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-21384808939788782012013-08-31T02:23:15.577-07:002013-08-31T02:23:15.577-07:00the task could be endured
It could, but it won...<b>the task could be endured</b><br /><br />It <i>could</i>, but it <i>won't</i>.<br /><br /><br /><b>I choose to believe in a God that would grant such relief.</b><br /><br />It's not God that's withholding anything from anyone.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-73643124614704311562013-08-31T01:45:55.244-07:002013-08-31T01:45:55.244-07:00From what I have observed of rational human beings...<b>From what I have observed of rational human beings</b><br /><br />Sharpen your sense of observation. Haven't you noticed by now how most people just don't change, ever, not even when all logic and reasoned argument urges them to ? Not even when they know everything is lost ? Rather they still "march on" to their own impending doom.<br /><br />Either way, if you don't believe me, feel free to spend eternity preaching repentance to the damned, and describing to them the pleasures of the Kingdom: see if any of them will ever budge.<br /><br /><br /><b>According to what?</b><br /><br />The teachings of our faith.<br /><br /><br /><b>Because they don’t actually believe this is true?</b><br /><br />They <i>know</i> this to be true.<br /><br />The pagan Roman soldiers weren't Christians.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-71116650781847923442013-08-30T12:29:18.397-07:002013-08-30T12:29:18.397-07:00Thank you once again for a thoughtful reply.
It se...Thank you once again for a thoughtful reply.<br />It seems that in your consideration of this issue you divide choices from their consequences, which from my perspective seems absurd. The two naturally go hand in hand.<br />From what I have observed of rational human beings, they frequently suffer through pains in order to achieve the good, especially as they become further convinced of the beneficial consequence. For example, a rational individual would not walk on broken glass without reason, but if the other side held a reward worth enduring the painful steps across the shards, then the task could be endured. We make decisions and endure hardships for the perceived benefits associated with such actions. <br /><br />So once again, if we hold that an individual that suffers hell is conscious, rational, and aware of the reward that would be had if they endured the refining fires on the path to heaven it seems obvious that the rational agent would choose heaven. If the soul loses rationality, then God leaves us in an animalistic state to suffer helplessly for eternity. If we lose our consciousness, then it is absurd to speak of suffering since one must necessarily be conscious to suffer. <br />To reiterate, I hold that an individual will only choose something as long as it is seen as good. Hell will be seen by rational souls as undesirable and thus they will seek after relief. I choose to believe in a God that would grant such relief.<br /><br />“All Orthodox/Catholic Christians know that theoretically the bliss awaiting monks infinitely surpasses that awaiting married people.”<br />According to what?<br /><br />“So why then are there so few monks in any given Orthodox and Catholic country or nation ? Only a few lousy thousands in a land of millions or even tens of millions ? Hmmm ?” <br /><br />because they don’t actually believe this is true?<br /><br />“Of course, you might say that "infinitely less bliss" is not quite the same as "infinitely great suffering". But when you really think about it, the mechanism or mentality underlying those two different choices is ultimately the same.”<br /><br />This is absolutely false. The man who experiences a pleasure of 10 and a man who experiences pleasure of 2 are still both experiencing pleasure. No suffering is experienced. There is a world of difference between this and the soul that suffers the worst horrors imagineable.<br /><br />“ When the pagan Roman soldiers, who had obviously no bone in the whole Jewish-Christian controversy, came to the Priests, Pharisees, and Sadducees, and informed them of His resurrection, was there any logical reason to doubt the truth of their testimony ? Did they ever doubt that is was an objective or impartial statement ? No. Did they embrace it or accept it ? No.”<br /><br />Given that we were not there, it seems that the most we can say is that it is possible that those who denied the resurrection may have done so on illogical grounds, but I can think of several logical reasons why they may have doubted Christian claims. For example, perhaps some priests, Romans, etc. heard a bad argument for the resurrection. Perhaps they weren’t presented with evidence. Perhaps they found good evidence against the Christian claim. There are numerous possible reasons.<br />Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-501645195055548432013-08-30T03:44:09.767-07:002013-08-30T03:44:09.767-07:00Perhaps a small link to better illustrate my point...Perhaps a small <a href="http://eastern-orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2013/06/unrepentant-sinners-at-last-judgment.html" rel="nofollow">link</a> to better illustrate my point (while simultaneously elevating my depressing blog-statistics) would be in order here...The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-45429734780866405262013-08-30T03:15:28.950-07:002013-08-30T03:15:28.950-07:00So let us drink, and eat, and be merry, and put as...So let us drink, and eat, and be merry, and put aside such silly little questions, no different than a little child asking his parents about birds and bees, when in fact he will eventually come to understand them anyway from within himself at the appointed time, with or without their answers, which his mind can't comprehend at that age anyway...The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-21055062701098582062013-08-30T03:14:57.599-07:002013-08-30T03:14:57.599-07:00The door that leads out of pain is itself unbearab...The door that leads out of pain is itself unbearably painful. <br /><br />As I already said: The bliss of Heaven comes as the direct result of embracing a certain specific way of existence. A selfless existence. What greater or more unbearable sacrifice than that of renouncing oneself ? For some, the price is too high. How could it not be ?<br /><br />To make it clearer: It's not about "wanting to feel good": nobody is into SM. It's about very sincerely and very consciously embracing a certain way of existence. The thing itself. NOT ITS FRUITS. Mentally knowing that the undesirable thing is the right thing, is ultimately irrelevant. You won't embrace the rose for the beauty of its petals if you consider it too high a price to be stung by its thorns.<br /><br />Look, here are some simple examples: All Orthodox/Catholic Christians know that theoretically the bliss awaiting monks infinitely surpasses that awaiting married people. So why then are there so few monks in any given Orthodox and Catholic country or nation ? Only a few lousy thousands in a land of millions or even tens of millions ? Hmmm ? Of course, you might say that "infinitely less bliss" is not quite the same as "infinitely great suffering". But when you really think about it, the mechanism or mentality underlying those two different choices is ultimately the same.<br /><br />Here's another thing: God is all-knowing, knowing the hearts of men; dwelling outside of time, so that the future is not a mystery to Him; and He never lies. He also informs us that these states are eternal. So why would anyone think any different ? Logically, there is no choice but to believe Him. Just like logically there is no choice but to embrace Heaven, as you argue. But, as you can clearly see, logic is overrated. Logic (the Logos) also happens to be the Son of God. Was He treasured, when He came to us ? When the pagan Roman soldiers, who had obviously no bone in the whole Jewish-Christian controversy, came to the Priests, Pharisees, and Sadducees, and informed them of His resurrection, was there any logical reason to doubt the truth of their testimony ? Did they ever doubt that is was an objective or impartial statement ? No. Did they embrace it or accept it ? No. In fact, they persecuted His followers even more so than before. Just because something is not logical, doesn't mean that it's untrue. It wasn't logical for Catholics to form the Inquisition despite Christ's clear teachings against such measures. But nevertheless it happened.<br /><br />Still not convinced ? Don't worry, you will be. It is unavoidable. We will all die, in no more than a few decades, and shall enter one of these two states. If you're really-really lucky, and will find yourself amongst the damned, then you will finally truly know from within your self why damnation will never be abandoned, despite still theoretically knowing that it "should". But there are no "should" and `would` left when the mind has reached a conscious choice. Yet if by some grave misfortune or twisted irony of fate you will find yourself amongst the Saints, despair not, you will still get your answer, by first realizing from within yourself why it is absurd to leave such a blessed state, and then intuitively understanding that a similar but diametrically opposed conclusion has been reached by the damned; which will become all the more obvious when approaching them, and asking them to join you and God and the Saints in heavenly bliss, but they will very categorically and hatefully refuse, despising to their guts what is required of them to do in order to arrive there in that state which is indeed as blissful as theirs is repugnant. And since that refusal and rejection in based in their conscious being, time has nothing to do with it. They will cement themselves in evil as you will cement yourself in good. And that's that. So fear not, and dread not, because whatever happens, you will eventually understand the answer to your question, since you yourself will experience it, as will we all.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-54698460461456054522013-08-29T15:59:43.601-07:002013-08-29T15:59:43.601-07:00Thank you for the reply.
The conclusion one comes...Thank you for the reply.<br /><br />The conclusion one comes to on these issues necessarily boils down, at least in part, to the presuppositions with which they begin. Do we hold that hell will be a state of suffering which we will consciously recognize as such, or do we devolve into mindless animals that are basically dead? If the former, I stand by my original post. It is absurd that any rational being, aware of why they are suffering and how they could go about remedying their lot would yet choose to experience such horror.<br /><br />You state that "They don't choose hell directly, they're not mindless sado-masochists: they choose the train that takes them there, because they like its color." My primary question in response would be whether or not they understand that they are choosing hell, or at least understand that they are choosing evil. If not can we really say they are making such a choice? If you choose a specific ice cream flavor because you perceive that it will bring you the most satisfaction, but then after consuming it the vendor reveals that it was actually poison is it fair to say that you chose poison, or do you have to understand what you are getting yourself into? Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-89617477078343430422013-08-29T15:37:13.273-07:002013-08-29T15:37:13.273-07:00They don't choose hell directly, they're n...They don't choose hell directly, they're not mindless sado-masochists: they choose the train that takes them there, because they like its color. After all, it is a very pretty color: You would like it too !... Come on, what do you say: wanna give it a ride ?...The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-47345539539888937682013-08-29T15:30:49.078-07:002013-08-29T15:30:49.078-07:00It's not a question of time, it's a questi...It's not a question of time, it's a question of ontology. And although many things are possible (an infinity, really) only a few actually exist or ever materialize. It is "possible" for me to ____ the dead: most-probably I never will. It is "possible" for Satan to repent. He won't. Hasn't done it in the last fourteen billion years, not even in the last month, despite reading your brilliant post on how "dumb" it is of silly little him not to, and how absurd it is to still cling to his stupid pride instead of becoming meek like God, and thus enter salvation. The bliss of Heaven is not some sort of a spiritual Disneyland, it comes as the direct result of embracing a certain specific way of existence. A selfless existence. What greater or more unbearable sacrifice than that of renouncing oneself ? For some, the price is too high. How could it not be ? For others, it's worth it. That's that. Plain and simple.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-14169979756094242812013-07-09T14:32:43.432-07:002013-07-09T14:32:43.432-07:00"there is no time in eternity -- Heaven and H..."there is no time in eternity -- Heaven and Hell are outside of it."<br /><br />If we have physical, resurrected bodies, we will necessarily be in a temporal setting. How can we be a-temporal without being drastically different creatures than we are in our current state?<br /><br />"It makes no sense to effectively conflate Hell and Purgatory, which in essence those who believe Hell is not permanent are doing."<br /><br />Technically, the concept makes perfect sense. I think what you mean to say is it conflicts with Catholic teaching.<br /><br />"That all are (at least eventually) saved is the heresy of universalism. Were it true, then it would not matter how anyone lived their life -- how sinful, how non-repentent or how hateful." <br /><br />This is not true. It could be the case that souls must still pay the price for their sins in a purgatory of sorts; the punishment will just not be permanent. Universalism isn't necessarily a "it doesn't matter what you did! Come on in!" philosophy. Many universalists maintain that how we live and act in this life are still very important, and purgation/ purification will be necessary in the hereafter.<br /><br />Frankly, in light of God's infinite love, universalism makes a lot more sense to me than the idea that a soul forever being tormented, unable to escape.<br /> <br />"This is very opposite of what I read in Holy Scripture!" <br /><br />If you have specific passages in mind we can discuss those.Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-42485932391815192962013-07-09T12:44:01.611-07:002013-07-09T12:44:01.611-07:00Addressing various points...
God condemns no one ...Addressing various points...<br /><br />God condemns no one and wants all to be saved. He does not punish sinners with Hell, but in His love lets us freely reject Him. His justice is perfect in reading our hearts. Mitigating circumstances (like mental illness) could never be perfectly judged by us but are judged perfectly by Him. If God finds a person not culpable of rejecting Him, then they have not freely separated themselves from Him in the first place and would not be in Hell.<br /><br />If the damned could reconsider their lot, change their hearts, turn to God and be saved then of course every person would ultimately be saved. This would only be a matter of time, but there is no time in eternity -- Heaven and Hell are outside of it. When in our lives we have willfully formed ourselves apart from God, then that is who we are at death and who we remain forever.<br /><br />It makes no sense to effectively conflate Hell and Purgatory, which in essence those who believe Hell is not permanent are doing. These are two very different judgements. That all are (at least eventually) saved is the heresy of universalism. Were it true, then it would not matter how anyone lived their life -- how sinful, how non-repentent or how hateful. This is very opposite of what I read in Holy Scripture!<br /><br />FWIW, I wrote about this some <a href="http://www.convertjournal.com/2011/06/is-hell-empty/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. There is also a good Catholic Answers piece <a href="http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br />George @ Convert Journalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11230803204895454672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-28826318792773473132013-07-04T12:50:19.922-07:002013-07-04T12:50:19.922-07:00This seems to be the way Eastern Christianity and ...This seems to be the way Eastern Christianity and thinkers like NT Wright have spoken of the afterlife. If I remember correctly this view is compatible, if not dogmatic, in Roman Catholicism.<br /><br />I think people often confuse "experiencing time differently" with "living outside of time."Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-67098517529575898962013-07-04T09:13:32.714-07:002013-07-04T09:13:32.714-07:00So this is not my area of expertise, but I thought...So this is not my area of expertise, but I thought "Heaven" is a bit of a misnomer anyway, since what we're really looking forward to is a "New Earth." At least I know many Christians say this. It seems to me that calling it a New Earth implies temporality. But I'm just shooting from the hip here, I have no idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-28046808202819177292013-07-02T20:35:22.414-07:002013-07-02T20:35:22.414-07:00Thanks for the reply, Devin.
"Regarding the...Thanks for the reply, Devin. <br /><br />"Regarding the argument that Heaven after the general resurrection will be temporal, I don't think that follows. For one thing, Jesus is already resurrected and is in Heaven with His human body."<br /><br />Do you believe that Jesus is able to think and move wherever he is? For example, can he take two steps forward? If so, then wouldn't you have to concede that Christ exists in some form of temporal state since movement requires before, during, and after? <br /><br />If you don't believe Christ is able to physically move, do you believe he exists in an atemporal suspension of some sort?<br /><br />"That would be a weird thing, as if Heaven was out of time before and now it is bound to time."<br /><br />Perhaps heaven has always been temporal, since it exists for human beings which are temporal.<br /><br />"More generally, consider the angels, who with perfect knowledge still made an irrevocable choice. The fallen angels chose pride and rejected God."<br /><br />Unfortunately, we are often left speculating about angels and the state they were in prior to their fall. Did they make a decision with a full knowledge of what they were getting themselves into? This example brings me back to my discussion about what could possibly lead an intelligent entity, human, demonic, or angelic, to willingly act against God. I have yet to make sense of how this could be a possibility.<br /><br />What sources or evidences are there that Satan made his decision with a full knowledge? I can't help but believe that if Satan actually rejected God will full consent and freedom there must be something else going on. Perhaps Hell isn't that bad. Perhaps Satan is actually the hero- an angel that rebels against a tyrannical deity. If so we are all in trouble.<br /><br />"...he made it once in a timeless life."<br /><br />How can a decision be made outside of time? To make a decision Satan must have existed prior to making his decision, during his decision, and after his decision at which point he was fallen.<br /><br />Perhaps my next blog post will be about time and whether timelessness is a coherent idea. Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15847382426498944866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1428166667613656621.post-20769590841544771312013-07-02T20:06:26.820-07:002013-07-02T20:06:26.820-07:00Fascinating exploration. Regarding the argument th...Fascinating exploration. Regarding the argument that Heaven after the general resurrection will be temporal, I don't think that follows. For one thing, Jesus is already resurrected and is in Heaven with His human body. But I don't think we would say that Heaven became temporal the moment Christ ascended into Heaven. That would be a weird thing, as if Heaven was out of time before and now it is bound to time.<br /><br />More generally, consider the angels, who with perfect knowledge still made an irrevocable choice. The fallen angels chose pride and rejected God. Now, you don't hear of Satan changing his mind after X thousands of years and deciding "hey, maybe I'll quit this whole evil mastermind gig and become good again." No, because he made a choice against God with full knowledge. In other words, it is possible to do that. To say 'No' to God even seeing Him clearly.<br /><br />Similarly I think we can make the same decision. Unlike the angels, we have time to repent, time to change and turn to God, but if we continue to reject the chances He gives us, we are making the same decision that Satan made, the only difference is we made it ten thousand times over an eighty year life and he made it once in a timeless life.<br /><br />God bless!<br />DevinDevin Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13706894435441471620noreply@blogger.com